Thoughts from a New Player

[x1101011x]

it shuts up people requesting 2 of the most asked for things ... It likewise takes away the 'I don't wanters' screams because they can toggle them.

I toggle it off, so that I don't see them. Now, I ask in chat where this quest is, and I get told, "Just toggle quest markers on."

I find the quest and complete it, gaining knowledge about who gives the quest and where they are. Other people toggle the option on. They get the quest without asking about it. Now I've missed an opportunity to help someone else by sharing my knowledge.

This game is about presenting challenges to overcome with cooperation and collaboration. Finding the quest is a challenge to overcome. People will try all sorts of different ways to overcome a challenge. Naturally, some will try to overcome it by asking to have the challenge removed.

Should we do it?

Now, you might say, "There are plenty of other challenges in the game like bosses and named mobs. This is just one little qol change that will satisfy players and boost player numbers."

But it's not. It won't satisfy players because the next complaint will now be the biggest complaint, and it won't boost numbers because people will still have trouble finding groups, which is the core issue.

Other games made small changes like this slowly over the years and became something terrible. Sure, this one small change wouldn't completely ruin the game yet, but it does lose something that makes it good, and if your reason for implementing the change can then be applied to the next change and the next, then the slippery slope isn't a fallacy.

Where's the point to stop, and why isn't it here?

 

[Undone]

I think there is a healthy middle ground where we do a better job in the quest log either by giving more info or better descriptions.

 

[x1101011x]

I think there is a healthy middle ground where we do a better job in the quest log either by giving more info or better descriptions.

If quest markers were implemented, then maybe a good middle ground would be having NPCs with a quest occasionally perform some emote animation to indicate that something is on their mind.

 

[Espysix]

If quest markers were implemented, then maybe a good middle ground would be having NPCs with a quest occasionally perform some emote animation to indicate that something is on their mind.

I actually really like this idea. Something, anything that says, "hey I have something worth talking about" would be great over the current system of spamming through every dialog box.

Covid has been kicking my butt, however I've read through the replies. I will say, that learning about blupider was eye opening for direction. Why can't the first NPC you talk to say something along the lines of, "if you get lost, look to the sky."

I still feel strongly about the quest log spelling some things out. Quest giver's name, and location, written in the text, so you know where to go. Not a map icon, or anything like that. And a continuous log of what you have finished rather than the finished quest steps vanishing.

I still feel trial accounts need to have access to the class specializations. This is one point I continuously see brought up in both streams, and in game. You may have a general feel of the game by the time you are level 6, but you don't have a feel of the class. As soon as an unsure, new player can try something new on the hotbar, they are hit with a paywall. This is a massive turnoff. Honestly, why not just give access to the 2nd region and make leaving northreach the barrier instead of the city.

Most grouping is happening in northreach anyway, and you'd have a higher pop there from those on the fence wondering. The more time invested early game, the more time that is likely to turn into a purchase, or hopefully a recurring sub!

 

[Undone]

Covid has been kicking my butt, however I've read through the replies. I will say, that learning about blupider was eye opening for direction. Why can't the first NPC you talk to say something along the lines of, "if you get lost, look to the sky."

I'm pretty sure one of the early ranger quests mention this explicitly.

I still feel strongly about the quest log spelling some things out. Quest giver's name, and location, written in the text, so you know where to go. Not a map icon, or anything like that. And a continuous log of what you have finished rather than the finished quest steps vanishing.

There's a lot of room for improvement here I agree.

I still feel trial accounts need to have access to the class specializations. This is one point I continuously see brought up in both streams, and in game. You may have a general feel of the game by the time you are level 6, but you don't have a feel of the class. As soon as an unsure, new player can try something new on the hotbar, they are hit with a paywall. This is a massive turnoff. Honestly, why not just give access to the 2nd region and make leaving northreach the barrier instead of the city.

We have to remember that we're talking about a free trial. Northreach has mobs up to level 13, which could be used to level up to maybe level 20? Compare that to Newhaven Valley which has mobs up to level 6, which could maybe get you to 13? So when considering giving away ~25% or ~40% of the levels for free it's not all that surprising that we went with the lower value.

The situation gets even more complex when we start considering the lack of natural barriers; if we open Northreach to free trials then there are none to be had. Instead of a door you cannot click there is an open path that you simply cannot pass? And do we allow players into CV2? Because if so, then mobs go up to level 16, which could potentially level you to 23, which is now ~46% of the available levels. And if we disallow CV2 then how is that going to feel when the player is grouping with friends and everyone can enter the zone except for them?

At the end of the day the zone layouts, specializations, etc, were NOT designed for a free trial in mind. We have done free weekends in the past which allowed folks to explore the entire game, but they just weren't cutting it when it came to bringing new players into the game at a frequency we had hoped for. When implementing our free trial we went with natural barriers which we hoped would give the players a taste of the game not the class. The other options explored were some sort of time or level limit, but we felt both of those options were far too limiting and felt very artificial when compared to the current implementation.

 

[Espysix]

The free trial is the only chance there is to make an impression. The game is about grouping. I think a level cap is a better barrier than the city. For instance, a level cap of 10, or 12, you have a chance to see the class, and the next zone. But more importantly, that is someone else to group with. So the existing player-base is really the primary beneficiary. I fully understand the game was not designed with the trial in mind, but it exists now for a reason.

Even if someone does not purchase the game but does level to the next zone, was it loss in the end? The population was higher, and there was a larger pool of potential grouping.

At the end of the day, I can only offer my thoughts of what would have made things easier. I was not the only one to start this game when I did but, I am the only one that's still left. What is here is great, and the latest update has been a wonderful success amongst the current player-base. I just want to offer my thoughts on what would have helped me, and may help others who stumbled upon this game without any prior outside influence or knowledge.

 

[MarcusFromOz]

If there was a level cap of 10, I would also suggest a gathering/crafting profession cap of 12.
(12 allows you to get the 3rd gathering/crafting profession)

While that would be 20% of the levels, it's really also 1% of the levelling.
Without thinking it through entirely for issues, it's not a bad idea.

 

[nikgervae]

I'm pretty sure one of the early ranger quests mention this explicitly.

The third NPC I talked to in the start zone, right at the round tower, mentions how to find north after you do the quest to kill 12 beasts.

 

[Undone]

It's a moving goal post; no matter where we end the trial someone is going to think it should be more. While I appreciate the discussion and will continue considering the best way to improve things we simply don't have time to revamp the trial process right now with everything else on our plate. I think the current setup gives players a good taste of what our game is all about while also leaving them wanting more.

 

[Keiban]

I think the current setup gives players a good taste of what our game is all about while also leaving them wanting more.

I may not remember correctly (and I'm forced to an old PC where I can't check) but I think you can't see (all) of the skills a class will get before you choose them.
So maybe some tweaks to the UI so you can preview every class's skills would already go a long way.

 

[Undone]

I may not remember correctly (and I'm forced to an old PC where I can't check) but I think you can't see (all) of the skills a class will get before you choose them.
So maybe some tweaks to the UI so you can preview every class's skills would already go a long way.

That's a good point. Any ideas on how/where to display that? Right now the spec tooltip is really just a big ol' tooltip with the names of the skills and a description.

 

[Keiban]

That's a good point. Any ideas on how/where to display that? Right now the spec tooltip is really just a big ol' tooltip with the names of the skills and a description.

Here's a quick mockup:

Have a Dropdown-Button next to Base + Subclass. In this example, if I click on Knight I can choose between all Defender Subclasses, and if I click on Defender, I can choose between all Base classes (and then pick between the different subclasses of that other Base class). Maybe have a text like "Preview" on the char sheets (and in the dropdown list) that don't match your current base + subclass.
Not sure how it looks when you haven't chosen a subclass yet though.

 

[MarcusFromOz]

I may not remember correctly (and I'm forced to an old PC where I can't check) but I think you can't see (all) of the skills a class will get before you choose them.
So maybe some tweaks to the UI so you can preview every class's skills would already go a long way.

 

[Undone]

Well, we do a better job than I thought we did

 

[Keiban]

Yeah, I didn't remember it being this detailed and couldn't check it.
My "solution" may still be worth looking into, as it would work for all sub-classes at once (and not just the 3 of your current base class) and also give detailed skill tooltips including alchemy. But certainly not a high priority.

 

[emberral]

The things you people claim would break immersion... Do you REALLY stand around all day pretending you are your character, and all these easy-to-forget NPCs standing around twitching is immersive?

Compass - Nope, breaks immersion
Quest givers that are obvious, so you don't waste time trying to figure out who has quests - Nope, breaks immersion

Just two examples. Making certain things so they can be toggled on and off would satisfy both types of people, but apparently the people who are against basic QoL features want everyone else to suffer too. I honestly don't get that. But it breaks my immersion if someone else has a compass! Really? This sounds so ridiculous to me. A big planet in the sky is the same thing, but people sit around pretending it's not. SMH. Well the vision is alive. It's real. The 15 people who protect their immersion like a rabid dog chewing a bone have their niche game. It's so niche that it's barely alive. All these "immersion-breaking" things could be done in a way so you can sit in your little immersive world without being impacted, but nope, everyone must suffer this nonsense with you. Well, here you are. A ultra-low population game that probably won't see ANY significant growth unless it somehow manages to get on Steam, but that is not even in the foreseeable future.

Insisting on a vision that makes people leave the game once they try it is insane. You cannot force people to like your design by repeating that it is your vision over and over. Either they like the vision, or they do not. I'm not here to roleplay a person constantly lost in the woods trying to find a familiar landmark in the middle of the night, running around an extra half hour pointlessly while accomplishing nothing. I like hard combat. I like that grouping is rewarded. I also like that I CAN make progress solo when groups are happening. I do not at all like the resistance to basic QoL features that would actually attract more players without losing the spirit of the game. Developers who listen to that small 5% echo chamber of people who love extremes will be left with those 5% playing their game. The evidence is right in front of your eyes, but you refuse to acknowledge it. What you're doing isn't working. Every time you do add a feature people want, you put such a punishing requirement on it that it is not even worth doing to me. Alchemy? Oh boy, yet another system that relies on ember essence that you have to grind off ashen mobs to be able to use it.

I'm here for now. I've even donated. It remains to be seen if I stay. That's not a threat to try to get my way. It's just another affirmation that this vision is not working.

 

[emberral]

I still don’t believe the devs know most of the reasons why people leave the game. There are many that just stop playing and never say a word. Yes they know some of the reason and have made changes to address these but there are definitely more changes/adjustments needed.
I have seen people say no magic class, poor performance, slow combat, slow xp, no end game and others. The devs have made some changes but definitely need to adjust more.

In my opinion, classes should be looked at again and reworked. I have found a few skills/buffs for just the Sentinel that basically do nothing at the level given. Go through the classes and ensure that each skill has a purpose at the level given.

Solo content is slow, repetitive and boring. Also, xp is way too slow for solo players as well. Adjustments have been made but still slow especially in the 20-30 range. Running the same content over and over is boring as a solo player. Also, rewards are lacking for solo players. It seems you need good gear to level at a decent pace but you can’t get the gear as a solo player.

I still believe that the level compression will help. Yea, levels may seem a bit slower but there is less levels and people would be closer in level and a close the level/group gap more. This was dropped because some people were against it- I believe some of those people no longer play now.

Adjusting the GEL system to allow higher levels to mentor down and get some sort of xp. Give higher levels some incentive to group up with lower levels. Many other games systems in place.

Add more end game content. Level 50 players seem to stop playing with little to do at max level. Keep hearing start an alt but how many times can you do that? Get the epic weapons/gear in game. This will go level 50s something to do for a while.

I know the game was developed for groups but unfortunately it has been extremely hard to get a group over the last 6 plus months.

The devs have made a good amount of progress and have more planned. This will definitely help and it will take time. The issue I see is that most of the people who have tried the game and have been turned off may never give it another shot. I am pretty close to taking another break from the game again. I only held on because I heard there were some changes for solo/xp experience in the 20-30 range. They changes has no impact on my level 25 character.

Retention is key and understanding why people leave is key as well. I have mentioned this so many times that a survey of some sort should be sent out to everyone who has played the game before. This way you know definite reasons why people leave the game.

People give reasons. Not everyone that leaves gives reasons, of course, but people do give feedback in discord and in these forums. Most of the time they are told, with many flowery words, that it won't change, the game is not for them, and to move along. The vision has been clung to tenaciously. The result is a population of 12-30 people over the course of the day. I find my interest dying after two weeks. It's just a boring slog. Even group play is losing its fun. All the changes that have been made to smooth the rough edges obviously have not had a significant impact. I have a Discord friend who got laughed at for his feedback. This is an objective person who gives give discourse when he talks about stuff. He analyzes. He's not sarcastic or rude. Ignoring the feedback of people like that who jumped into the game at release has led to the current state of the game. Actions have consequences. Insisting on a vision that pushes people away has consequences. The response "this game may not be for you" is 100% spot on. People left in droves to find a game that was. Telling people that it may not be the game for them, hoping reverse psychology will kick in and make them stay doesn't work.

Confusing tedium and unnecessary blah and calling it challenge is disingenuous and frankly somewhat deluded. Example: I don't want an alchemy system that requires me to have to grind ember essence to use. It's just one more grind needed to be effective. It's like the whole "event" to retune the ember ring/monolith in Newhaven City. I dread that every four days. It's a boring task that wastes my time.

 

[x1101011x]

A big planet in the sky is the same thing, but people sit around pretending it's not

If it's the same thing, then you already have your compass, right?

 

[x1101011x]

A ultra-low population game that probably won't see ANY significant growth unless it somehow manages to get on Steam, but that is not even in the foreseeable future.

That's literally their main current objective, and the game is completely free to play until it happens.

 

[x1101011x]

Making certain things so they can be toggled on and off would satisfy both types of people

It doesn't, though. Different players seeing different things is one of the main things I hate about modern games. I literally found this game by searching for an "mmo without instances" precisely because I want to have a persistent world with a shared experience.