Thoughts from a New Player

[Keiban]

nah, I'm good, it can all be read in the forums and discord. Keep living in your delusional world where the game is good and the thousands of players that tried it and quit were somehow just not realising how much fun and good times they were having.

 

[Kaelaien]

You are saying that not playing the game is a popular choice. Because not playing the game is popular, it must be the case that the game is bad. This is an appeal to popularity because the argument that the game is bad is not directly tied to how popular the choice of not playing the game is.

In fact, you gave specific examples of how your argument is wrong in the pizza analogy:

Note that, in the pizza example, I did NOT make an appeal to popularity because I said:

And there is, in fact, a direct connection between what people BUY, and what companies offer.

Similarly, there can be other reasons that people do not play the game, even if the game itself is good. In fact, one hypothesis was stated:




No, actually, many people don't. Many people don't understand what it is that makes them want to play.

Games are designed to put you in your flow state. This is generally achieved by creating conditioned reinforcers, such as xp points, to provide motivation and by matching your skill level to the task at hand so that you are just able to accomplish your goal. For example, the classic game Tetris puts people in their flow state by gradually increasing in speed. It starts off very easy. Eventually, you hit the point at which you are just able to get the blocks in, and you're "in the zone". Then, it overwhelms you, and you want to replay the game to get back to your flow state.

Embers Adrift has many features that make it easier to enter your flow state. For instance, the alchemy system widens the range of acceptable difficulty levels that will put you into your flow state. It achieves this by placing a hefty cost (ember) on using alchemy abilities but making them quite powerful. Since the cost is high, you could be in a difficult fight that did not make you use ember but still enter your flow state because you can think of ember as something external to the abilities available to you. Yet, an even more difficult fight might require ember, and you're still in your flow state because you barely succeeded with the little bit of ember you used. An even more difficult fight might require even more ember use or even alchemy 2 abilities. The alchemy system widens the difficulty range of encounters you can face to enter your flow state, making it more likely to happen.

Alchemy is one of the many examples of mechanics that make Embers Adrift an OBJECTIVELY good game.

Saying the game is objectively good does NOT mean that the game is good, so you should like it. Whether or not you like the game is subjective. Something can be objectively good and subjectively bad or objectively bad and subjectively good.

For example, my second favorite movie is Batman & Robin. This is an objectively bad movie. There are objective criteria for what makes a movie good, such as "show, don't tell". These are features abstracted from examples of many good movies in the past. Batman & Robin, however, is subjectively good (to me); I like it because they have nipples on their breastplates. Subjectivity refers to the presence of the subject. In this case, the subject is me: I like the movie. For each subject, there is a potentially different evaluation. That's what subjective means.

So, saying Embers Adrift is objectively good means that it checks off many objective criteria for things that make a good game, things like the alchemy system for getting people into their flow state.



You haven't named any shortcomings here. You've just listed parts of the game.

Combat - The combat in the game is excellent. Mobs are actually hard. Pulls require care and planning, and the world feels dangerous. There is actual challenge to overcome, and we overcome it. The controls are responsive, and the abilities feel good to use and execute.

Graphics - The graphics look great. I routinely find myself taking screenshots because I think the world just looks good right then. That's not something I've really ever done in any other game before.

Performance - This is an actual issue. I had trouble running the game on my old PC before I built a new one in July. Even on my new one, there are areas with horrible framerate stuttering that should not be a problem at all on this blazing new high-end PC. I agree with this.

Animations - I haven't had any problem with animations. I don't think they're particularly good or bad. What is your issue here?

World Detail - Do you mean the textures on the surfaces? I think the texture maps and bump maps are really good, and I often find myself looking at rocks or other objects and thinking, "hey, that looks really nice". Do you mean the locations in the world? There are a lot of spots with great scenic views. I remember entering the meadowlands for the first time. The path is on a hill sloping down, so your first view is a far-reaching vista of basically the whole zone. I thought that was really well done. In Redshore, I went investigating the map because a spot looked suspiciously inviting, so I went exploring

Spoiler

by swimming across a lake

and ended up finding

Spoiler

a whole new zone, Grizzled Peaks

. I thought that was really neat too. I'm not sure what you mean here.

Class Skills - I think all of the classes are great. They're all unique with different feels, and the abilities are good. A sentinel feels a lot different from a duelist, who feels a lot different from a warlord. They can all heal, but they excel in certain specifics, and they complement each other in different ways. Each specialization is a blend of two roles:

Knight - Defender/Supporter
Juggernaut - Defender/Striker
Marshal - Defender/CC
Berserker - Striker/Defender
Warden - Striker/Supporter
Brigand - Striker/CC
Sentinel - Supporter/Defender
Duelist - Supporter/Striker
Warlord - Supporter/CC

Each one has a core ability for their role (e.g., First Aid), and a core ability for their specialization (e.g., Replenish) that encapsulates their main strength (e.g., single target heals over time). It's simple yet diverse and interesting. What's your problem with it?

CC Timer - What? What is this? If you target a mob, you can see how long the cc has left. Are you saying you can't see the increased resistance to subsequent cc's of the same type that leads to diminishing returns? Are you serious? Are you complaining that the game doesn't play itself for you?

Stats - What? There are stats. Some make your character better. Some don't. Some are situationally good and maybe you make an armor set around that. When I look at an item, I can be like, "ooh, that's a good item!" or "Meh". There is diversity in stats, and you can get different types of stats from different types of gear, so that you aren't just completely focused on your few main stats and just completely ignoring everything else. That's a good thing. In fact, it's a really good thing, and itemization is something this game gets really right. What's the problem here?


Also, this conversation is maybe getting off-track from the OP, so, if you want to continue discussing what you think is wrong with the game, maybe we should take it to different threads?

These are all your reason why you may like the game in its current state. Some may agree with a few of your points but overall not so much, hence the current population. Many have tried the game but end up leaving so people are not connecting with the game.

 

[x1101011x]

but overall not so much, hence the current population

Citation needed or this is just the argumentum ad populum already pointed out.

 

[x1101011x]

nah, I'm good, it can all be read in the forums and discord. Keep living in your delusional world where the game is good and the thousands of players that tried it and quit were somehow just not realising how much fun and good times they were having.

Well, after scouring the forums, it seems that the people who complain generally don't understand the game mechanics and don't understand game design. Also, the number one complaint is overwhelmingly "hard to find groups" and not "game is bad".

In fact, everything I've seen has basically been, "I love this game, but it's no fun solo." I was in discord voice chat with someone as they quit, and they said, "I want to play this game, but I'm just so tired of playing alone."

Now, why would it be so hard to leave a bad game?

Meanwhile, just today, I ran basilisk ev, undercroft, and the spider/wolf cave with full groups, literally playing all day for over 12 hours constantly in groups.

 

[MarcusFromOz]

I would argue that once you hit about level 25 in this game, the three factors become much harder to satisfy.

1. Proximity
2. Repeated, unplanned interactions
3. A setting that encourages people to let their guard down and confide in each other

My own experience is that from 0 - 10 having a static doesn't matter.
You learn the game, have fun, everything is new.

From 10-20 things change, you start seeing the same people in the same timezone and at the same level, and you just need that one catalyst person that regularly gets a group together and you are good.

If that group persists beyond 20 life is good, progression feels fast enough, there is some horizontal progression via crafting, you can use BB's to fill in some time, you have quests, regs to collect, resources to gather, Ember Essence to gather, hunting log goals, alchemy skills to level, gold to increase your bank size.

The wall seems to be 25-35.
A key member of your static takes a break and its hard to replace them.
Solo progression is generally punishing because it's the social side of the game that adds to the "flow".
You start projecting how long it will take for that next dopamine hit and are discouraged by how far away that is.

I now have a warden at 39 and a tank at 36.
My regular group has whittled down to 2 of us.

I wish I knew what would inspire me again, but after 2 years I'm losing it.
Levelling solo or duo just for the sake of levelling just doesn't provide enough motivation when there are so many other shiny things on the market.

And this whole chicken and egg thing of need more people, to do more dev work, is making me concerned.
Perhaps I'm at the point where I have to say, thank you for all the fun, it's been a great two years.
Its wierd, I don't want to leave because I love the community, but if I don't log in regularly it's not helping the population.

I'm staying subbed at the moment and hoping the dev team can pull a quillback out of a hat.

(yeh that was wildly off topic - apologies)

 

[Espysix]

I began this thread with just a handful of suggestions of things that would make a new player's experience just a little bit smoother. Now, I'm not saying it is bad by any means. In fact, it is probably the best part of the game, but the idea was that the items were low impact high yield. Adding lines of text to a log book is not asking for overhauls for instance. The reason this is so important is the population of the game is dire. Everyone knows it, this discussion has been had over and over.

This is a very niche sub genre in an already niche market. The primary audience for this game, has a game. Everquest, which is vastly more populated. I say that since most of the systems in the game come from Everquest. To pull someone from that game is going to be difficult. So your only option are new players looking for something oldschool, that isn't oldschool.

It's already established this game can't be advertised. The most recent relevent content of any noteworthy attention is over a year old. So, that leaves one other option. Steam. Which of course is not an easy task, however the importance of steam simply cannot be overstated. I would argue it's more important than anything else period. But, there is no need to beat this dead horse.

This game has a solid foundation. It runs well, it is fun, and it has that vibe anyone looking for this style of game is going to find. Moreover, the community that there is, has been fantastic. I want to see the game grow, badly. What's here is great, it just needs to retain new blood, which is hard without an already existing base.

So, the game can't be advertised, can't go to steam, and has a small potential audience. So the only thing left is to ensure that the new player experince is the best it can be. And by new player, I am talking from the 1-30 at minimal.

Why did you choose not to log in? For me, I wish the dungeons were more varied in style, and had actual bosses rather than just an amped up regular mobs. Watching a stream of a level 50 does not look any different than what I'm doing now more than 25 levels behind.

 

[MarcusFromOz]

I began this thread with just a handful of suggestions of things that would make a new player's experience just a little bit smoother. Now, I'm not saying it is bad by any means. In fact, it is probably the best part of the game, but the idea was that the items were low impact high yield. Adding lines of text to a log book is not asking for overhauls for instance. The reason this is so important is the population of the game is dire. Everyone knows it, this discussion has been had over and over.

This is a very niche sub genre in an already niche market. The primary audience for this game, has a game. Everquest, which is vastly more populated. I say that since most of the systems in the game come from Everquest. To pull someone from that game is going to be difficult. So your only option are new players looking for something oldschool, that isn't oldschool.

It's already established this game can't be advertised. The most recent relevent content of any noteworthy attention is over a year old. So, that leaves one other option. Steam. Which of course is not an easy task, however the importance of steam simply cannot be overstated. I would argue it's more important than anything else period. But, there is no need to beat this dead horse.

This game has a solid foundation. It runs well, it is fun, and it has that vibe anyone looking for this style of game is going to find. Moreover, the community that there is, has been fantastic. I want to see the game grow, badly. What's here is great, it just needs to retain new blood, which is hard without an already existing base.

So, the game can't be advertised, can't go to steam, and has a small potential audience. So the only thing left is to ensure that the new player experince is the best it can be. And by new player, I am talking from the 1-30 at minimal.

Why did you choose not to log in? For me, I wish the dungeons were more varied in style, and had actual bosses rather than just an amped up regular mobs. Watching a stream of a level 50 does not look any different than what I'm doing now more than 25 levels behind.

For me it's because the Blizzard behemoth is like an endless supply of little dopamine hits, and a day goes by, then 3, then 5, then oh shit I haven't logged in to embers for a few weeks.

The scary thing is that before I played the Blizzard game again I didn't need those dopamine hits, now I feel like I've inserted the Blizzard cannula with superglue.

 

[Kaelaien]

I began this thread with just a handful of suggestions of things that would make a new player's experience just a little bit smoother. Now, I'm not saying it is bad by any means. In fact, it is probably the best part of the game, but the idea was that the items were low impact high yield. Adding lines of text to a log book is not asking for overhauls for instance. The reason this is so important is the population of the game is dire. Everyone knows it, this discussion has been had over and over.

This is a very niche sub genre in an already niche market. The primary audience for this game, has a game. Everquest, which is vastly more populated. I say that since most of the systems in the game come from Everquest. To pull someone from that game is going to be difficult. So your only option are new players looking for something oldschool, that isn't oldschool.

It's already established this game can't be advertised. The most recent relevent content of any noteworthy attention is over a year old. So, that leaves one other option. Steam. Which of course is not an easy task, however the importance of steam simply cannot be overstated. I would argue it's more important than anything else period. But, there is no need to beat this dead horse.

This game has a solid foundation. It runs well, it is fun, and it has that vibe anyone looking for this style of game is going to find. Moreover, the community that there is, has been fantastic. I want to see the game grow, badly. What's here is great, it just needs to retain new blood, which is hard without an already existing base.

So, the game can't be advertised, can't go to steam, and has a small potential audience. So the only thing left is to ensure that the new player experince is the best it can be. And by new player, I am talking from the 1-30 at minimal.

Why did you choose not to log in? For me, I wish the dungeons were more varied in style, and had actual bosses rather than just an amped up regular mobs. Watching a stream of a level 50 does not look any different than what I'm doing now more than 25 levels behind.

I decided to stop logging in again for several reasons. I’ve been playing since the beta, and while the initial population was thriving and forming groups was easy, that’s no longer the case.

First, finding groups has become quite difficult due to the low population. You will hear a few people say this is not the case, but those are mostly the ones that can play the game for 8 plus hours a day.

Second, the solo content is monotonous, repetitive, and lacks meaningful rewards. I find myself running the same solo loops over and over, especially since leveling takes a long time. I understand that the game was designed with group play in mind, but times have changed, and with such a low population, adjustments to the solo experience are necessary.

After playing for three months straight, I’ve only encountered one group and had a few opportunities to duo with another player. This mirrors my experiences from previous returns to the game.

Lastly, both players and some developers have acknowledged issues with the leveling experience between levels 20-30, and possibly up to 35. Although a “slight” change was made to experience gain and bulletin board rewards, it has had no noticeable effect on leveling in that range; it still requires the same number of kills for each percentage of experience gained. While I appreciate that additional solo mobs were added in Highland Hills to enhance the solo experience, it still doesn’t address the fact that levels 20-30 remain particularly challenging.

Overall, the game, in its current state, is not designed with the casual player in mind. It will take me at least another year to year and half to hit max level (currently level 25).

I may check back later in the year to see what updates have been made. I do enjoy the game when groups are available, and the community is great- that is the reason why I kept coming back.

 

[x1101011x]

After playing for three months straight, I’ve only encountered one group and had a few opportunities to duo with another player.

Have you tried organizing and scheduling groups outside the game?

Right now there are several active players around lvl 25 who are very willing to group up. At what times would you typically be able to play?

 

[Kaelaien]

Have you tried organizing and scheduling groups outside the game?

Right now there are several active players around lvl 25 who are very willing to group up. At what times would you typically be able to play?

I have asked a few times in discord and every time I log in multiple times.
I have tried all different times from morning, afternoon and evening- EST. Usually play at night around 8-9 and sometimes around 2-3.

 

[MarcusFromOz]

For me it's because the Blizzard behemoth is like an endless supply of little dopamine hits, and a day goes by, then 3, then 5, then oh shit I haven't logged in to embers for a few weeks.

The scary thing is that before I played the Blizzard game again I didn't need those dopamine hits, now I feel like I've inserted the Blizzard cannula with superglue.

Just as an update, I've decided to stop playing WoW for now and come back to Embers as my main game.
Cannula removed.

 

[x1101011x]

I have asked a few times in discord and every time I log in multiple times.
I have tried all different times from morning, afternoon and evening- EST. Usually play at night around 8-9 and sometimes around 2-3.

I work during those times. On workdays, I'm generally on from 12 AM to 3 AM EST. The next days I have off are Sunday and Tuesday, when I'll generally be playing all day. I'd happily gather a party and group up with you during any of those times.

In fact, I have a particular marshal, berserker, and duelist in mind who, together with my brigand, would almost certainly be willing and able to join and run whatever your heart's desire.

That goes as well for anyone else in this thread having trouble finding a group. I have alts spread over a wide range of lvls.

 

[Elloa]

Hey @Espysix - Welcome to the game and welcome to the community. I'm glad you stumble uppon the game and I do hope that you are enjoying yoruself and met cool people.
Thank you very much for your feedback, even if there is a few items that will not change because we intently designed them that way and are happy with our design (compass, quest markers), you have pointed out several issues that could be resconsidered and discussed.


To the community, please try to not be hostile to each others even if you share different opinion, may it be about the game or anything else. There is enough division and hardships in the world, let's keep discussions about hobbies (such as playing a video game) the most pleasant possible.
What I mean is that... in the grand scheme of things, that the game is great or bad doesn't really matter, do not waste your precious energy arguing for it. Share your feedback so the dev team can improve the game, and play Embers Adrift if you are enjoying yourself. If you don't, by all means, do something more enjoyable for yourself. Your time is your most precious currency.

The biggest flaw of Embers Adrift is the lack of population and the biggest turn off is the lack of population. With enough players, the game TODAY is actually in a pretty good state for the players that enjoy that playstyle. Is there enough players that enjoy that playstyle at all is another question. Maybe our project is too much of a niche.
In anycase, we have arrived to a point where there little we can do beside continuing to improve/polish the game and add content. We can not re-make the game. We can not change the whole concept. Nor do we want I think. At least I don't.

Next step to bring back population is our 2 ANNIVERSARY CELEBRATION. The whole community can help to make this weekend unforgettable and to spread the word. I count on you all, our loyal players. Let's bring back players and let's enjoy Embers Adrift together. If nothing else, at least for that weekend

 

[7thRankedNoob]

"We can not change the whole concept. Nor do we want I think..."

So, Stormhaven have to ask themselves is adding 2 toggleable things changing the concept? People don't have to use them and many current shoutdown customers possibly wouldn't

*Compass: Your maps are already not to scale etc ... what does this hurt? Even EQ has a compass (and before that they had /LOC ...)
*Quest markers: People (many) have brought this up over the last 2 years. I don't personally want them. but it is such any easy fix

* I understand you fear this will change the game. It might even do just that. But think of the possible gain you might get from adding them at very little cost.

These are the 2 most talked about things I've seen in discord from NEW people. On the quest markers ... Think of it this way. When I've been in low level groups, there has always been someone "Go see this guys for such and such quest... IS that different from a quest marker? I was told. It honestly didn't dilute the experience.

 

[x1101011x]

When I've been in low level groups, there has always been someone "Go see this guys for such and such quest... IS that different from a quest marker? I was told. It honestly didn't dilute the experience.

This IS the experience. This is literally the whole point. This is a social, group game, and the mechanics are designed to get people to interact with each other.

 

[Undone]

*Compass: Your maps are already not to scale etc ... what does this hurt? Even EQ has a compass (and before that they had /LOC ...)

I've implemented UI compasses in previous games and saw first hand what it does to player behavior. If players have an on screen element that gives them a fixed direction they stop paying attention to the world around them and instead stare at the UI element while traversing the land. Having the compass (Blupiter) being in the world gives the desired direction while still encouraging players to continue paying attention to their surroundings.

*Quest markers: People (many) have brought this up over the last 2 years. I don't personally want them. but it is such any easy fix

* I understand you fear this will change the game. It might even do just that. But think of the possible gain you might get from adding them at very little cost.

I am curious where you came to the conclusion that "is such an easy fix" & "at very little cost"? As you yourself mentioned, our maps are not geographically accurate, which means that every POI has to be manually placed on the map itself. So just to get started we would need to manually add every NPC to each individual map. On top of that, we would then need to tie each individual NPC on the map to the appropriate quest data so that it knows when to show, when to not show, etc. This is functionality which currently does not exist. So while I don't disagree that this would be a good thing, I do disagree that this would be "an easy fix" or would come at "very little cost" (if we're talking about cost = time).

 

[x1101011x]

As you yourself mentioned, our maps are not geographically accurate, which means that every POI has to be manually placed on the map itself. So just to get started we would need to manually add every NPC to each individual map.

I assume the points of interest currently on the map (e.g., ruins) have both a location in the game's 3D space and a location on the map's 2D space. You could try using the 3D distances to the k-nearest points of interest to create local 2D coordinates on the map and interpolate a position.

 

[Undone]

I assume the points of interest currently on the map (i.e., ruins) have both a location in the game's 3D space and a location on the map's 2D space. You could try using the 3D distances to the k-nearest points of interest to create local 2D coordinates on the map and interpolate a position.

Yes. However, we cannot map the 2D coordinates to the 3D coordinates because the maps are not geographically accurate; they are artist interpretations of the actual map. The two dimensional distances on the map can vary wildly compared to their three dimensional counterparts - which would lead to wildly inaccurate interpolations.

 

[x1101011x]

Yes. However, we cannot map the 2D coordinates to the 3D coordinates because the maps are not geographically accurate; they are artist interpretations of the actual map. The two dimensional distances on the map can vary wildly compared to their three dimensional counterparts - which would lead to wildly inaccurate interpolations.

Oh, yeah, it would look bad for sure. Although, a lot of the quest givers are right next to an already existing location on the maps, so it actually might not be that bad in practice. But if it were used to, say, provide a live update of the player's location, then it would probably look quite ridiculous to stare at your map while you ran in a straight line.

Also, I've joked that the maps are completely accurate; people are just forgetting about Mercator projection!

 

[7thRankedNoob]

Hey Undone. By quest markers I was speaking to the fact people have requested giant WOW exclamations for NPC who have quests. By 'easy' I meant make these things (compass and exclamations) toggleable and it shuts up people requesting 2 of the most asked for things ... It likewise takes away the 'I don't wanters' screams because they can toggle them.

They are simply added QOL choices.

I didnt mean I wanted completely redone maps etc. I agree thats completely outside your cost