Thoughts from a New Player

[Espysix]

Greetings all. I happened on this game purely by accident. I was looking for something with a much more traditional older design approach to MMO's. I've played up to about level 12 so far and thought I'd share my wish list of things that might help others in my position.

-A compass. This may not be needed once you know maps, but until then, it is so disorienting when you're trying to find anything. Just having a way pointing north that doesn't rely on a planet would be a great help. I did not know about the planet until I was about level 8.
-Quest log has quest giver location. Having just a few lines added to the quest log would help greatly. "Belgor at windmill camp in Newhaven valley needs....."
-Quest log has completed steps for quest chains. You can't see completed steps, so if say my friend wants to know what step I'm on compared to them, I just have to remember. Seeing the completed steps does add a bit of self accomplishment too.
-A better stash identifier. I didn't even know the stash existed until I was passed Newhaven Valley. Perhaps glowing, or just larger in general? Nothing directs you to click on the little box. I only found out about it by googling for an hour and landing on a different thread from 2 years ago.
-Show skill tree before selection. A few lines of dialog are great, but seeing the actual abilities for specializations would have really helped with choosing. Again, I just googled for an hour trying to really see the difference.
-Better indicator you are in combat. Not necessary, but just knowing you're still being attacked, like a red outline around your portrait, would be extremely helpful.
-Quest giver is marked. I understand the idea behind talk to everyone, but all this really leads to is spam clicking through every NPC dialog and missed quests. Or more likely, someone more experianced just running you to the quest giver anyway.

Trial improvements:
-Allow specialization on trial accounts. After your forth skill, you don't get a new one until you pick a specialization, which you can't get on a trail. This very nearly made me quit. I slogged through to get leveled up to see what the main class would be like and I am hit with a paywall. You don't have to allow access to the next zone, just change the quest.
-Allow Zone and World chat on trial accounts. The game is not populated enough to warrant these safeguards. And with its high group importance, your new players are drowning and can't call for help. Even if someone does offer help in world or zone, they can't get a response. This actually happened to me.
-Request to join group. Right now, the only way I know to join someones group is to whisper them, which you can't do on a trial account. Why can't I right click the posted looking for group and send an automated request to join?

These are just a few things that as a new player, I would have appreciated, especially the trial improvements. Beyond that, the game has been a wonderful change of pace and I am enjoying it so far. Everyone I've met has been awesome and everything that makes these games great with none of the toxic behavior of other games.

 

[Mynno]

Greetings all. I happened on this game purely by accident. I was looking for something with a much more traditional older design approach to MMO's. I've played up to about level 12 so far and thought I'd share my wish list of things that might help others in my position.

-A compass. This may not be needed once you know maps, but until then, it is so disorienting when you're trying to find anything. Just having a way pointing north that doesn't rely on a planet would be a great help. I did not know about the planet until I was about level 8.

Agree or even better a marker of where you are on the map.

-Quest log has quest giver location. Having just a few lines added to the quest log would help greatly. "Belgor at windmill camp in Newhaven valley needs....."

Also agree this would help.

-Quest log has completed steps for quest chains. You can't see completed steps, so if say my friend wants to know what step I'm on compared to them, I just have to remember. Seeing the completed steps does add a bit of self accomplishment too.

Agree.

-A better stash identifier. I didn't even know the stash existed until I was passed Newhaven Valley. Perhaps glowing, or just larger in general? Nothing directs you to click on the little box. I only found out about it by googling for an hour and landing on a different thread from 2 years ago.

Maybe have one of the beginning quest givers point out that the lock boxes exist.

-Show skill tree before selection. A few lines of dialog are great, but seeing the actual abilities for specializations would have really helped with choosing. Again, I just googled for an hour trying to really see the difference.

Really not sure how I feel about this one, on one hand it would help in making the selection but on the other it is showing game mechanics in gameplay so breaking immersion.

-Better indicator you are in combat. Not necessary, but just knowing you're still being attacked, like a red outline around your portrait, would be extremely helpful.

Disagree. It's obvious you are in combat, there are indicators already such as the crossed swords that fade once the battle is over.

-Quest giver is marked. I understand the idea behind talk to everyone, but all this really leads to is spam clicking through every NPC dialog and missed quests. Or more likely, someone more experianced just running you to the quest giver anyway.

Also disagree. The game would lose immersion if the quest givers glowed or had question marks above their heads or whatever idea they could come up with to show they want you to do a quest for them.

Trial improvements:
-Allow specialization on trial accounts. After your forth skill, you don't get a new one until you pick a specialization, which you can't get on a trail. This very nearly made me quit. I slogged through to get leveled up to see what the main class would be like and I am hit with a paywall. You don't have to allow access to the next zone, just change the quest.

Agree with 100%

-Allow Zone and World chat on trial accounts. The game is not populated enough to warrant these safeguards. And with its high group importance, your new players are drowning and can't call for help. Even if someone does offer help in world or zone, they can't get a response. This actually happened to me.

I have no experience in this since I subbed from first day.

-Request to join group. Right now, the only way I know to join someones group is to whisper them, which you can't do on a trial account. Why can't I right click the posted looking for group and send an automated request to join?

Again, I have no experience in this since I started when the game first came out and there were no issues in getting in groups then.

These are just a few things that as a new player, I would have appreciated, especially the trial improvements. Beyond that, the game has been a wonderful change of pace and I am enjoying it so far. Everyone I've met has been awesome and everything that makes these games great with none of the toxic behavior of other games.

Glad you decided to stick with it despite some of the issues you faced. Welcome to the game. Thank you for taking the time to write this.

 

[Extrems]

Quest giver is marked

No thanks. I really understand your point but, from my point of view, any marker over the NPCs will destroy immersion.
Of course we can desactívate it at our will (in case was implemented) but it would be against the essence of the game.

 

[Espysix]

I appreciate the responses. I certainly figured the quest giver would be an unpopular want, and really of everything I listed, I'd say it is near the bottom of priorities. I only bring it up as from someone who is experiencing everything for the first time, the lack of indicator left me with numerous missed quests. Just today, I was simply led to 3 new quest givers by a guild mate. Regardless, I do understand the appeal and wouldn't place this high as a need.

The trial account items that I listed separately would be my primary focus. A group focused game cannot hamstring its primary appeal if it wants to attract anyone new. Perhaps if the game was actually advertised, or on steam, then I could see the chat restrictions as necessary, but right now, the only way new players arrive is simply by stumbling across the game at random. A trial account cannot chat, so it cannot group effectively. That means the first 2 dungeons are out leaving only Newhaven valley and the city available. They can't get their specialization, but you can get the quest, so once you get the quest to get that, you're hit with a paywall.

So, you can't chat, you can't group, therefore you can't run any content besides over-world. So you decide to at least do that. If you spent the last several hours grinding deer and bears to finally get a new ability only to be told you have to pay $20-$40 after you got the quest to get your new abilities, what would you do? It is demoralizing.

 

[Undone]

The trial account items that I listed separately would be my primary focus. A group focused game cannot hamstring its primary appeal if it wants to attract anyone new. Perhaps if the game was actually advertised, or on steam, then I could see the chat restrictions as necessary, but right now, the only way new players arrive is simply by stumbling across the game at random.

Advertising is not something we can currently afford. We are considering steam at some point, but there are no guarantees there either.

A trial account cannot chat, so it cannot group effectively. That means the first 2 dungeons are out leaving only Newhaven valley and the city available.

I'm a bit confused at the chat restrictions described. Trial accounts should have no issues whispering someone, using the LFG tool, joining a group, or talking in the global /help channel. The only restrictions to my recollection are that you cannot add someone as a friend, join a guild, trade with, or send mail to another player.

They can't get their specialization, but you can get the quest, so once you get the quest to get that, you're hit with a paywall.

So, you can't chat, you can't group, therefore you can't run any content besides over-world. So you decide to at least do that. If you spent the last several hours grinding deer and bears to finally get a new ability only to be told you have to pay $20-$40 after you got the quest to get your new abilities, what would you do? It is demoralizing.

It is a free trial with no time limit. The city is a natural barrier to the rest of the game both thematically and practically. If players make it that far they should have a decent idea if they are enjoying the game or not. If you had already paid for the game and we were asking for more that would be a different story. But up until this point the game has cost $0.

 

[Espysix]

I certainly understand why the game is not advertised. I did not intend that to be a retort of any kind. And I also know the discussion on steam has been had. All I really meant is that without these two factors, the only way anyone learns about this game is by randomly stumbling across it like I did. Which I am glad I did.

When I attempted to use world chat, or zone chat, I was unable. These are the first and primary ways anyone communicates. I could whisper my friend who I drug into the game and was already grouped with, but I did not try whispering anyone else. The assumption was no chats were available when the primary one wasn't. That's on me. I'm just trying to give a new impression perspective. There is no need to restrict any chats is all that I'm saying.

What I suggested for the free trial, was simply allow access to the specializations. Not the next region. This is what caused my friend to quit. After spending all day leveling, we thought we would be able to get the specialization. When we got the quest and touched the door, we were walled off, when all we wanted to see was the class a bit more.

 

[Undone]

I certainly understand why the game is not advertised. I did not intend that to be a retort of any kind. And I also know the discussion on steam has been had. All I really meant is that without these two factors, the only way anyone learns about this game is by randomly stumbling across it like I did. Which I am glad I did.

Yea it is a bit unfortunate, but we're glad some are stumbling across us!

When I attempted to use world chat, or zone chat, I was unable. These are the first and primary ways anyone communicates. I could whisper my friend who I drug into the game and was already grouped with, but I did not try whispering anyone else. The assumption was no chats were available when the primary one wasn't. That's on me. I'm just trying to give a new impression perspective. There is no need to restrict any chats is all that I'm saying.

Gotcha I can see how that could cause confusion. I just added "Use "/help" instead." to the end of the message that says you cannot use those channels so hopefully that will help.

What I suggested for the free trial, was simply allow access to the specializations. Not the next region. This is what caused my friend to quit. After spending all day leveling, we thought we would be able to get the specialization. When we got the quest and touched the door, we were walled off, when all we wanted to see was the class a bit more.

The issue here is that the spec quests were written for Northreach. In order to unlock your spec you have to acquire a certain reagent, which only first appear in Northreach as they are specific to certain creatures that are not present in Newhaven Valley. And even so, unlocking a single additional ability is unlikely to show enough of the spec flavor to sell someone more on the game if they aren't already sold.

 

[x1101011x]

Most of the items you listed were made intentionally the way they were, and this design is the reason people like me enjoy this game so much.

Games like this present you with challenges to overcome and progression once you've overcome those challenges. This includes not only your in-game character with your skills and gear but also you, the player. Learning how to navigate the world, learning the "lay of the land" and where things are, learning NPCs and quests and objectives and locations are all part of your personal progression.

This is a social game. Quests are intentionally vague because solving them is a collaborative effort. Every one of these quests has been done by someone else already, someone probably online. You're supposed to seek help from others, whether grouping up with other people in your situation and exploring together, seeking guidance from more experienced players, or even just following a guide on embers-adrift.wiki

Also, I found this game very easily by simply Googling for a game that had what I wanted.

This game doesn't hold your hand. That's a good thing.

 

[Espysix]

I am curious which items specifically you're referring to.

The compass - I agree this is more of a nitpick. However, constantly being turned around before I knew the map did get frustrating.
The quest log with the quest giver location - I disagree. I feel a few added lines of dialog to the quest text simply stating who gave the quest and where they are is a benefit. Especially if you take a break from the game and return at a later date, forgetting where you were.
Quest log has completed steps for quest chains - Again I disagree. You already have the steps, they just disappear once you're done. Just keep the steps available as completed in the quest log.
A better stash identifier - I agree, a nitpick. Once you know what to look for you see them. But nothing points you to them initially.
Show skill tree before selection - I still think knowing what you're selecting first is a benefit, but I'm outvoted in the thread on this one so I concede
Better indicator you are in combat - A nitpick, but the graphic already exists. Still, I'm outvoted here as well.
Quest giver is marked - I knew this would be controversial already. But spamming through quest text, or just getting lead to the quest giver made it feel like an extra step. But yeah, I agree this is not necessary especially now that I discovered the bounty boards.

As for the trial improvements, see above. I still am in the boat that the specialization should be available to trial accounts, without the next zone, but I can respect the dev's vision there and the discussion was had.

As for finding the game, you and I both found it by googling very specifically what we wanted. But the average number of players online suggests that the game is not easily found. Not holding your hand is a good thing. These are just some of the things that I would have benefited when starting and I feel another new player would also have appreciated. Minor adjustments, not sweeping changes and none of it would affect either the more social aspect, or experienced player in the end.

 

[x1101011x]

I am curious which items specifically you're referring to.

Compass - Absolutely great the way it is now. Looking to the planet in the sky is WAY more immersive than looking at a dial on your HUD. Plus, occlusion from trees, mountains, or clouds can provide various scenarios of partial information that can vary the difficulty of navigating the world, which is much more interesting.

Quest Giver Location - Just ask someone if you forgot. It's a social game.

Quest Log Completed Steps - OK. I actually think it would be great if the game had a codex of all the lore, dialogue, etc. you had encountered, but it would be an absolutely monumental amount of work to create for such a small team. For now, the codex is in your head, and there's a certain appeal to that.

Stash Identifier - No. Discovering things is fun.

Skill Tree Before Selection - It's not really necessary because you can look up the skill trees online, and you already have an idea of the play-style based on the descriptions. You can also see the skills you'll gain once you pick, and you get a list of the skills for the other specializations in your role. You can switch to a different specialization in the same role when you're at lvl 6, and you won't have any penalty because you're already at lvl 6.

Combat Indicator - No. Not only is there a buff on your character when you're in combat, but most enemies will make an audible sound when initiating combat. For instance, humanoid enemies who aggro you will unsheathe their weapons. In fact, looking to see whether the enemy has their weapon sheathed or not is a great indicator that shows you whether they've aggro'd or they're just investigating (and you should pull back farther). Using environmental cues (just like using the planet as a compass) is more immersive and better.

Quest Givers Marked - Absolutely not. The only thing making you spam through text is you. Some of us read it. Also, a note: bulletin boards and quests are completely different. Quests don't award XP; bulletin boards don't award items. Quests are long and hard and require grouping; bulletin boards are for solo grinding. Neither is a substitute for the other.

The game is supposed to be a box purchase plus subscription model, just like the mmo's of the past. The free trial was introduced to allow players to experience the game and determine if they wanted to pay for it. In my experience, the free trial was very successful: I was aware of the game when it launched, but I thought it looked weird and bad. After the free trial came out, however, I tried it and immediately purchased. Complaints about the free trial are even less meaningful given that the box price has dropped so low recently, sinking as low as $9.95; plus they made the subscription optional. This is not a free game. It's already super cheap. Yes, you're supposed to pay at some point. You don't need your specialization to understand the feel, look, and design of the game.

The average number of players online does not suggest the game is not easily found. There were many, many more players online in the past. What happened was that it launched lacking many features, people played it, got frustrated, and left. The game has been continually updating and is now excellent, but many people don't play because the population is low. It's a prisoner's dilemma type situation.

These "minor adjustments" are actually quite major. What they affect is your immersion and growth as a player, which is literally the whole point of a game like this.

 

[Espysix]

So what would you suggest for retention?

 

[Kaelaien]

So what would you suggest for retention?

I still don’t believe the devs know most of the reasons why people leave the game. There are many that just stop playing and never say a word. Yes they know some of the reason and have made changes to address these but there are definitely more changes/adjustments needed.
I have seen people say no magic class, poor performance, slow combat, slow xp, no end game and others. The devs have made some changes but definitely need to adjust more.

In my opinion, classes should be looked at again and reworked. I have found a few skills/buffs for just the Sentinel that basically do nothing at the level given. Go through the classes and ensure that each skill has a purpose at the level given.

Solo content is slow, repetitive and boring. Also, xp is way too slow for solo players as well. Adjustments have been made but still slow especially in the 20-30 range. Running the same content over and over is boring as a solo player. Also, rewards are lacking for solo players. It seems you need good gear to level at a decent pace but you can’t get the gear as a solo player.

I still believe that the level compression will help. Yea, levels may seem a bit slower but there is less levels and people would be closer in level and a close the level/group gap more. This was dropped because some people were against it- I believe some of those people no longer play now.

Adjusting the GEL system to allow higher levels to mentor down and get some sort of xp. Give higher levels some incentive to group up with lower levels. Many other games systems in place.

Add more end game content. Level 50 players seem to stop playing with little to do at max level. Keep hearing start an alt but how many times can you do that? Get the epic weapons/gear in game. This will go level 50s something to do for a while.

I know the game was developed for groups but unfortunately it has been extremely hard to get a group over the last 6 plus months.

The devs have made a good amount of progress and have more planned. This will definitely help and it will take time. The issue I see is that most of the people who have tried the game and have been turned off may never give it another shot. I am pretty close to taking another break from the game again. I only held on because I heard there were some changes for solo/xp experience in the 20-30 range. They changes has no impact on my level 25 character.

Retention is key and understanding why people leave is key as well. I have mentioned this so many times that a survey of some sort should be sent out to everyone who has played the game before. This way you know definite reasons why people leave the game.

 

[x1101011x]

II have found a few skills/buffs for just the Sentinel that basically do nothing at the level given.

My main is a sentinel, and I have no idea what abilities you're talking about. I routinely struggle with slotting the best 8 abilities for the moment because I want them all on my bar.

Solo content is slow, repetitive and boring. Also, xp is way too slow for solo players as well. Adjustments have been made but still slow especially in the 20-30 range. Running the same content over and over is boring as a solo player. Also, rewards are lacking for solo players. It seems you need good gear to level at a decent pace but you can’t get the gear as a solo player.

It's a group game. Grouping is incentivized. If solo play weren't significantly less effective than group play, people would never group. Even now, I will whisper people to group up, and they will sometimes decline, even though it's pretty much always better to group up.

I still believe that the level compression will help.

Level compression was a weird and horrible idea. If there's one way to get those last people to quit, it's to keep the grind exactly the same but make it feel so much slower. The levels are already effectively compressed, as you can group with people and gain xp over a wide range of levels.

Adjusting the GEL system to allow higher levels to mentor down and get some sort of xp.

A system like this could be good, but there are many caveats. For instance, you shouldn't be able to scale down your character, run the first dungeon over and over again, and reach max lvl, right? Many other games do something like this, but I've never actually seen it done well. Usually the scaling is off, and you're way too powerful, even when scaled down.

Add more end game content. Level 50 players seem to stop playing with little to do at max level. Keep hearing start an alt but how many times can you do that?

This game is all about the leveling. I don't understand why people will obsessively solo grind xp to rush to the end where there's supposedly nothing to do. If you get 9 characters to lvl 50, though, I'm pretty sure you beat the game and should stop playing.

I know the game was developed for groups but unfortunately it has been extremely hard to get a group over the last 6 plus months.

This has not been my experience at all. Grouping isn't easy, but I still routinely join groups. When I log in, I will /who all and see what groups might form with the current players. I will check the LFG tool, and, if there's someone in it, I will log into the appropriate lvl character to group up with them or play with them even if I get little to no xp. There are also other people who will switch to alts to join groups. It becomes very difficult to find a group when you only want to do your thing.

I have mentioned this so many times that a survey of some sort should be sent out to everyone who has played the game before. This way you know definite reasons why people leave the game.

LOL. Surveys will only find the reasons people give for leaving the game. People may not report the actual reason. In fact, many people might not even know the real reason they leave the game. Also, surveys are subject to participation bias, and, with the server population so low, a survey would suffer from small sample size. I'm not saying it wouldn't be good to have, but it certainly wouldn't provide confident answers.

I think the problem has always been and continues to be other players. It's the players who made the demands in previous mmos that slowly eroded those games. It's the players who min/max, gatekeep, and become toxic. It's the players who obsess about xp, run around solo, and complain when no one wants to do the exact thing they need. It's the players who will beg for a game with oldschool features and then complain about those exact features when they actually get the game they've been asking for. It's the players who will try a game once, quit right away, and then never come back when changes have been made.

The game can only do so much. People wanted an oldschool mmo so badly. Many mmo kickstarters took investor money and then never released anything. This studio actually gave us one, and it's really good. So why are less than 20 people playing it when I log in? It's the players.

 

[Keiban]

I think the problem has always been and continues to be other players. It's the players who made the demands in previous mmos that slowly eroded those games. It's the players who min/max, gatekeep, and become toxic. It's the players who obsess about xp, run around solo, and complain when no one wants to do the exact thing they need. It's the players who will beg for a game with oldschool features and then complain about those exact features when they actually get the game they've been asking for. It's the players who will try a game once, quit right away, and then never come back when changes have been made.

The game can only do so much. People wanted an oldschool mmo so badly. Many mmo kickstarters took investor money and then never released anything. This studio actually gave us one, and it's really good. So why are less than 20 people playing it when I log in? It's the players

What a strange take.
You remind me of the the stubborn and delusional chefs in Gordon Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares.
How dare all those customers to complain about my pizza being greasy, the dough being raw, it being cold, and the mushrooms tasting moldy? They all come only once and never come back.
They wanted Pizza and my Pizza is really good, so why is there only 2 customers every day? Silly customers...

 

[Kaelaien]

What a strange take.
You remind me of the the stubborn and delusional chefs in Gordon Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares.
How dare all those customers to complain about my pizza being greasy, the dough being raw, it being cold, and the mushrooms tasting moldy? They all come only once and never come back.
They wanted Pizza and my Pizza is really good, so why is there only 2 customers every day? Silly customers...

Glad you said it!
No players- no game......
Also, there is a small group of individuals who are quite content with the game as it is, even prior to some recent changes. This group tends to dismiss the feedback from others. Currently, the game sees only about 20-30 players during peak times. If this trend continues, the community is likely to shrink further, especially with several classic-style MMOs set to launch in the next 6-8 months

 

[x1101011x]

What a strange take.
You remind me of the the stubborn and delusional chefs in Gordon Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares.
How dare all those customers to complain about my pizza being greasy, the dough being raw, it being cold, and the mushrooms tasting moldy? They all come only once and never come back.
They wanted Pizza and my Pizza is really good, so why is there only 2 customers every day? Silly customers...

This is a perfect example, honestly. The most popular pizza chains ARE terrible and greasy because that's what people buy.

The people are always the problem.

 

[Keiban]

This is a perfect example, honestly. The most popular pizza chains ARE terrible and greasy because that's what people buy.

The people are always the problem.

You really don't get it.
YOU find them terrible. But apparently most people don't, or else they wouldn't buy them repeatedly.
And it's probably not because most people like them greasy, it's because they think "yeah, it's not that great, but at least they deliver to my location/are cheap/are open at this time/others might be worse"

 

[x1101011x]

You really don't get it.
YOU find them terrible. But apparently most people don't, or else they wouldn't buy them repeatedly.
And it's probably not because most people like them greasy, it's because they think "yeah, it's not that great, but at least they deliver to my location/are cheap/are open at this time/others might be worse"

I get exactly what you're saying. It has a term. It's called argumentum ad populum.

You are assuming that what people buy and play and what people want are the same. But, people are not rational actors; they don't always know what they want, and they tend to self sabotage.

There has been significant support for old-school style games. Yet, when a game like this is actually made, many people don't play it. Can you explain the disparity?

Embers Adrift is objectively a good game. That is, they have a design philosophy and effectively implement their design. That design philosophy is "old-school" style. Do you disagree with that?

 

[Keiban]

I get exactly what you're saying. It has a term. It's called argumentum ad populum.

That would only be the case if I said "It must be great because so many are buying them", but I didn't.

You are assuming that what people buy and play and what people want are the same. But, people are not rational actors; they don't always know what they want, and they tend to self sabotage.

They may not really know what they want, but they know for sure if what they got is good/fun etc.

There has been significant support for old-school style games. Yet, when a game like this is actually made, many people don't play it. Can you explain the disparity?

Yes, it's because they got a bad product and had too little fun playing it.
It's like when you really want Pizza, but when it arrives and you take a bite it tastes rotten and you stop eating and throw it away.
If I follow your logic, the pizza was totally fine and I just wasn't aware that I don't actually like Pizza. Sounds dumb, right?

Embers Adrift is objectively a good game. That is, they have a design philosophy and effectively implement their design. That design philosophy is "old-school" style. Do you disagree with that?

Eh, what? Just having a design philosophy and implementing it automatically makes it a good game? Then why would there even be bad games? Basically every game that's more complex then Tic-Tac-Toe fits that criteria...
And yes, I would disagree that EA is "objectively good". IMO, it has way too many shortcomings, both technical (combat, graphics, performance, animations, world detail) and design-wise (class skills, CC and lack of removal/immunity timer, Stats) to name a few.

 

[x1101011x]

That would only be the case if I said "It must be great because so many are buying them", but I didn't.

You are saying that not playing the game is a popular choice. Because not playing the game is popular, it must be the case that the game is bad. This is an appeal to popularity because the argument that the game is bad is not directly tied to how popular the choice of not playing the game is.

In fact, you gave specific examples of how your argument is wrong in the pizza analogy:

And it's probably not because most people like them greasy, it's because they think "yeah, it's not that great, but at least they deliver to my location/are cheap/are open at this time/others might be worse"

Note that, in the pizza example, I did NOT make an appeal to popularity because I said:

The most popular pizza chains ARE terrible and greasy because that's what people buy.

And there is, in fact, a direct connection between what people BUY, and what companies offer.

Similarly, there can be other reasons that people do not play the game, even if the game itself is good. In fact, one hypothesis was stated:

There were many, many more players online in the past. What happened was that it launched lacking many features, people played it, got frustrated, and left. The game has been continually updating and is now excellent, but many people don't play because the population is low. It's a prisoner's dilemma type situation.

They may not really know what they want, but they know for sure if what they got is good/fun etc.

No, actually, many people don't. Many people don't understand what it is that makes them want to play.

Games are designed to put you in your flow state. This is generally achieved by creating conditioned reinforcers, such as xp points, to provide motivation and by matching your skill level to the task at hand so that you are just able to accomplish your goal. For example, the classic game Tetris puts people in their flow state by gradually increasing in speed. It starts off very easy. Eventually, you hit the point at which you are just able to get the blocks in, and you're "in the zone". Then, it overwhelms you, and you want to replay the game to get back to your flow state.

Embers Adrift has many features that make it easier to enter your flow state. For instance, the alchemy system widens the range of acceptable difficulty levels that will put you into your flow state. It achieves this by placing a hefty cost (ember) on using alchemy abilities but making them quite powerful. Since the cost is high, you could be in a difficult fight that did not make you use ember but still enter your flow state because you can think of ember as something external to the abilities available to you. Yet, an even more difficult fight might require ember, and you're still in your flow state because you barely succeeded with the little bit of ember you used. An even more difficult fight might require even more ember use or even alchemy 2 abilities. The alchemy system widens the difficulty range of encounters you can face to enter your flow state, making it more likely to happen.

Alchemy is one of the many examples of mechanics that make Embers Adrift an OBJECTIVELY good game.

Saying the game is objectively good does NOT mean that the game is good, so you should like it. Whether or not you like the game is subjective. Something can be objectively good and subjectively bad or objectively bad and subjectively good.

For example, my second favorite movie is Batman & Robin. This is an objectively bad movie. There are objective criteria for what makes a movie good, such as "show, don't tell". These are features abstracted from examples of many good movies in the past. Batman & Robin, however, is subjectively good (to me); I like it because they have nipples on their breastplates. Subjectivity refers to the presence of the subject. In this case, the subject is me: I like the movie. For each subject, there is a potentially different evaluation. That's what subjective means.

So, saying Embers Adrift is objectively good means that it checks off many objective criteria for things that make a good game, things like the alchemy system for getting people into their flow state.

And yes, I would disagree that EA is "objectively good". IMO, it has way too many shortcomings, both technical (combat, graphics, performance, animations, world detail) and design-wise (class skills, CC and lack of removal/immunity timer, Stats) to name a few.

You haven't named any shortcomings here. You've just listed parts of the game.

Combat - The combat in the game is excellent. Mobs are actually hard. Pulls require care and planning, and the world feels dangerous. There is actual challenge to overcome, and we overcome it. The controls are responsive, and the abilities feel good to use and execute.

Graphics - The graphics look great. I routinely find myself taking screenshots because I think the world just looks good right then. That's not something I've really ever done in any other game before.

Performance - This is an actual issue. I had trouble running the game on my old PC before I built a new one in July. Even on my new one, there are areas with horrible framerate stuttering that should not be a problem at all on this blazing new high-end PC. I agree with this.

Animations - I haven't had any problem with animations. I don't think they're particularly good or bad. What is your issue here?

World Detail - Do you mean the textures on the surfaces? I think the texture maps and bump maps are really good, and I often find myself looking at rocks or other objects and thinking, "hey, that looks really nice". Do you mean the locations in the world? There are a lot of spots with great scenic views. I remember entering the meadowlands for the first time. The path is on a hill sloping down, so your first view is a far-reaching vista of basically the whole zone. I thought that was really well done. In Redshore, I went investigating the map because a spot looked suspiciously inviting, so I went exploring

Spoiler

by swimming across a lake

and ended up finding

Spoiler

a whole new zone, Grizzled Peaks

. I thought that was really neat too. I'm not sure what you mean here.

Class Skills - I think all of the classes are great. They're all unique with different feels, and the abilities are good. A sentinel feels a lot different from a duelist, who feels a lot different from a warlord. They can all heal, but they excel in certain specifics, and they complement each other in different ways. Each specialization is a blend of two roles:

Knight - Defender/Supporter
Juggernaut - Defender/Striker
Marshal - Defender/CC
Berserker - Striker/Defender
Warden - Striker/Supporter
Brigand - Striker/CC
Sentinel - Supporter/Defender
Duelist - Supporter/Striker
Warlord - Supporter/CC

Each one has a core ability for their role (e.g., First Aid), and a core ability for their specialization (e.g., Replenish) that encapsulates their main strength (e.g., single target heals over time). It's simple yet diverse and interesting. What's your problem with it?

CC Timer - What? What is this? If you target a mob, you can see how long the cc has left. Are you saying you can't see the increased resistance to subsequent cc's of the same type that leads to diminishing returns? Are you serious? Are you complaining that the game doesn't play itself for you?

Stats - What? There are stats. Some make your character better. Some don't. Some are situationally good and maybe you make an armor set around that. When I look at an item, I can be like, "ooh, that's a good item!" or "Meh". There is diversity in stats, and you can get different types of stats from different types of gear, so that you aren't just completely focused on your few main stats and just completely ignoring everything else. That's a good thing. In fact, it's a really good thing, and itemization is something this game gets really right. What's the problem here?


Also, this conversation is maybe getting off-track from the OP, so, if you want to continue discussing what you think is wrong with the game, maybe we should take it to different threads?