Initial feedback

[K0sh]

Hi all, I'd like to give some basic feedback after a couple of hours (just gotten to level 2). As a multi-decade-long pen&paper player, I have really been looking forward to try a game like Embers Adrift (EA). I am fine with most of the system design decisions made, even though they took some getting used to in an MMO (e.g., having to run to Guards to drop aggroed mobs).

When I GM pen-and-paper games, the main draw for my players and myself are the stories that we develop and experience together. Challenging and interesting combats are just the cherry-on-top (or spice) of these stories. In a CRPG/MMO, there fewer ways to tell or experience a rousing interactive story. However, it certainly is possible to succeed in doing so (e.g., TSW's Tyler Freeborn arc, classic WoW's Katrana Prestor / Onyxia chain). In EA, at least at the moment, there does not appear to be much storytelling. That can certainly be just due to the early state of the game. But for the release version, there would need to be considerably more going on in that area in in order to keep me engaged.

Given my background, I was a bit disappointed, even taking into account the early state of the game, that what few quests I was able to complete, did not give any XP but awarded only items. In the many PnP RPGs that I have participated in over the years, both as a GM and player, it was (and still is!) customary to give XP (or whatever other means of advancement are used in the specific game) for every contribution the characters make to the game, be that completing (sub)quests, defeating foes, or entertaining roleplay, to name just a few options. Getting XP only for defeating enemies (as seems to happen in EA) seems terribly one-dimensional to me and a bit limited for an MMO that claims to be so heavily inspired by PnP RPG roots as EA does.

But in any case, many thanks for giving me the chance to try the game and I do wish Stormhaven all the best in bringing it to release!

 

[Elloa]

Heyhey @K0sh ! Thank you so much for testing our game and for sharing your feedback!

I will explain you the reasoning behind NO XP for quest reward.
We want the system of quest to be separated from the adventuring side of quest for very specific reasons. Some people are interested by the Lore and some poeple are not. If we were to offer XP to reward quest, we would make the quest mendatory for all players (or really pushing in that direction). We would have to do a system of questing that would be convenient for most players.
By separating the quest system, we allow players to choose to take part of it or not. This allow us to be much more creative with our quest, as they do not have to be convenient. They can be complex, force players to think, investigate etc...And we can provide more lenghty text aswell, because we will assume that players taking part of the quest, either enjoy Lore and reading, or they really want the reward and accept to work for it.
By not offering quest XP, we can make our quest much more roleplay.

We also have plenty of NPCs that are not offering quest, but sharing informations and the like.

 

[Stundorn]

When I GM pen-and-paper games, the main draw for my players and myself are the stories that we develop and experience together. Challenging and interesting combats are just the cherry-on-top (or spice) of these stories. In a CRPG/MMO, there fewer ways to tell or experience a rousing interactive story. However, it certainly is possible to succeed in doing so (e.g., TSW's Tyler Freeborn arc, classic WoW's Katrana Prestor / Onyxia chain). In EA, at least at the moment, there does not appear to be much storytelling. That can certainly be just due to the early state of the game. But for the release version, there would need to be considerably more going on in that area in in order to keep me engaged.

I agree and disagree here. Sure there can be more Stories around, but i like to make my own stories, but this needs players willing to provide and become part of the story.
I'd like to play this game 100% iC and roleplay so we would create stories all day.

In the many PnP RPGs that I have participated in over the years, both as a GM and player, it was (and still is!) customary to give XP (or whatever other means of advancement are used in the specific game) for every contribution the characters make to the game, be that completing (sub)quests, defeating foes, or entertaining roleplay, to name just a few options. Getting XP only for defeating enemies (as seems to happen in EA) seems terribly one-dimensional to me and a bit limited for an MMO that claims to be so heavily inspired by PnP RPG roots as EA does.

i said this already in another thread, i'm really sad that even here in this game people focus on getting XP for every contribution.
I disagree here and Elloa's explanation is very good and i like Stormhavens aproach about that.
You are really trying to make a special game.
I'm really excited and looking forward to have complex and challenging quests and they are not available in masses and dull for xp grind only, but rare and special.

 

[K0sh]

Some people are interested by the Lore and some poeple are not. If we were to offer XP to reward quest, we would make the quest mendatory for all players (or really pushing in that direction).

Many thanks for the explanation, Elloa, which I am sure will be right up the alley of many of your potential players (as was also already seconded by Stundorn .

But let me play Devil's Advocate for a minute: With the same reasoning as used by Elloa, it could be argued that with the current approach, you make the mob kill grind "mandatory for all players (or really pushing in that direction)." That might not be to everyone's taste (personally, I prefer questing to killing sprees . On the other hand, it is, of course, a valid design decision for an MMO aiming to offer an alternative to the current commercial state-of-the-art games that specifically does not aim to please everyone.

I just fear that quite a few potential players might be turned away early by EA following a design philosophy that might just be a bit too alien to them at first glance. Maybe some compromise could be reached that does not invalidate EA's fundamental design paradigms, but can be considered extending an "olive branch" to players coming in from other games? This is a bit similar to Visionary Realms adapting the communications/PR on its Pantheon MMO to address a wider audience than the "hardcore oldschool gamer" (Source) initially targeted.

I am completely with Stundorn's criticism of "dull" quests used for xp grind only. On a more optimistic note, I do still have hope that it is possible to have "complex and challenging" quests in an MMO without the often associated excessive production costs. I personally would be very fine just reading text and do not need expensive cutscenes or custom in-engine animations to enjoy questing, as long as the stories and lore capture my imagination and lead to more roleplay/interactions in the party/guild.

The discussion of IC roleplay vs. roleplay induced by computer-controlled NPCs is a topic for another time, as I am already due for my next meeting ;-)

Again, many thanks to both of you for the clarifications, and all the best for the future development (and eventual release) of the game.

 

[Stundorn]

compromises are allways needed and good if done fair. So yes, what i can imagine are Quests that introduce people to the "sandbox grind" and teach them what gives them coin aka kill smugglers and waht gives them leather, meat or tea leaves if you are a hunter or wood, flax and shrooms if you are a forester etc.. So the quest want you to do this and that ordinary task you later need to do on your own without having a quest. Not sure something like this already exists, i heard people need to craft stuff for Marreska, i also did, but i cannot remember it had explained something, or it has and i'm too used to stuff like this and didnt recognize it completely, because it felt natural.