WB/New Player Feedback

[Malakalmawt]

I started playing around 12pm MST on Saturday and managed to get nearly to level 8 as of last night, 8/15. I played levels 1-5 in a group and levels 5-7 solo and picked support->duelist. I'm sort of brain dumping here, so I apologize for lack of organization.


The combat reminds me of KOTR/Dragon Age (which I love) but instead of controlling the party and using battle pausing, you control you individual character and rely on group communication and coordination. This resulted in a very enjoyable group experience, but solo, imo, the combat felt very slow and tedious. I feel there isn't enough CC, but that may be due to being low leveled and group comp (didn't play with any Marshals or Brigands), but it's worth mentioning because it seems like there is, imo, a high likelihood without some additional CC, that having a Brigand or Marshal is a group requirement and you run the risk of fights getting stale because you're limited in how you can engage, e.g. "if we can't outright poke them all to death and avoid other adds, we cannot engage". Regardless, the group combat felt great and I'm excited to get some more levels and experience combat with more skills at my disposal.


When I was playing solo, I was mostly trying to level Forester/Provisioning and finish uncovering the map. I found myself in extended combat several times and not necessarily because I wanted to be, I was just trying to get resources/uncover map. Point being, as a solo player, even doing something a simple as getting mats/exploring required paying a high time tax for few materials and I never did manage to uncover the whole map. I'm not sure what a good balance looks like or if there even should be one given the game's vision, but I play at weird times due to work/kids/business/etc and I'm not sure how much I'd be logging into Embers without a group lined up or at least some content/features in place for the solo adventurers. Perhaps a solution there is adding NPCs one can hire for a temporary group?


I loved the navigation/wayfinding. I've seen some suggestions about adding additional high rise locations one could use to determine their location, which would be great, but overall the current system I found to be enjoyable. I can see so many opportunities to lean into wayfinding, it reminds me of playing Morrowind ages ago and need to reference my journal and pay attention to environment around me to successfully find quest locations/etc.


I only briefly attempted a dungeon, we realized we weren't quite at that level yet. However, I've read the runs can take hours. Honestly, that would be a bit much for me most of the time. I'm lucky to get 3 hours of playtime any given night, so it seems I'd mostly be unable to enjoy that content without planning a night around it, which is fine, really, but it seems like someone looking to hop on and play for an hour or two would be excluded from a lot of content. Of course, someone in that category already runs into that problem with virtually every game, e.g. WoW Raiding/etc, so that's not a new issue, just an opinion I felt was worth mentioning.


The only thing in the game that left me thinking, "Wow, I really hate that," was the chat windows with NPCs. I would really like to see an auto-complete feature as the text writing across the screen is somewhat nauseating for me for whatever reason and that is always something I turn off. Maybe I'm just an idiot and missed the setting,, but if not, I'd really appreciate that being a feature.


I'll keep updating my feedback as it comes to me....I feel like I'm forgetting a few things I meant to discuss, but I will throw them in the replies if I recall them.


Overall, I loved the game and I'm excited to put in some more hours. I appreciate the hard work your team is putting into Embers!

 

[Malakalmawt]

I didn't call it out above, but I absolutely love the approach to healers and the idea of "battle medics." That is a refreshing take and sets Embers apart from most games in the genre, imo.
Also, the position based bonuses, really cool system. I played with the staff most of the time, exclusively while solo, but found using the sword to be behind/on the side of an enemy and have the tank in perfect line of sight just felt "right". I used the crossbow somewhat as well, but I didn't like how short the range was and preferred the idea of a melee healer in the thick of battle managing DoTs and heals.

 

[Malakalmawt]

I'm also reminded of suggestions I thought about regarding mob behavior.

For instance, the archers were problematic, in a good way. Once engaged, they would do this back up and shoot thing, which required positioning by players to prevent the archer from backing up into adds and triggering a party retreat or risking a wipe. As a result, we'd need to "herd" the archer and that became another aspect of that engagement.

Perhaps it is just lack of exposure to additional mobs, but outside one other example (Bucks coming to fight with Does), I don't know if any mobs carry any special considerations, e.g. it just came down to # of chevs and potential for adds. Again, I just may not have experienced it/be misremembering, but things like retreating, calling for help, etc, could be a great opportunity for strategic planning, e.g. if you engage a group of Smugglers, maybe we need to account for 1 running off to "sound an alarm" or something that would require someone to intercept them, etc. That would have some impact on my perceived CC issue I mention in the OP, but that would be some pretty immersive and rewarding combat, imo.


Worth mentioning, this is my first time providing feedback like this on a game, so please feel free to let me know how I can be more helpful with my feedback, etc.

 

[Sprout]

Perhaps a solution there is adding NPCs one can hire for a temporary group?

That would a bad idea imho, that would be against the idea of finding other players to play with and i beleive everyone would start running around solo.

 

[Malakalmawt]

That would a bad idea imho, that would be against the idea of finding other players to play with and i beleive everyone would start running around solo.

Ya, I can see that, but a lot of people want to group with real people, so I'm not sure it would play out where everyone just runs solo,. I think the bigger threat is what CypherWulf discussed where someone logs on and cannot consistently and quickly find a group, so they log off, or they don't have a group so they never bother logging on in the first place.

But ya, perhaps being able to use NPCs is too antithetical to the spirit of the game. I was just thinking about what would get me to log on when I didn't have a group and that's the first thing that came to mind. I know my days of spamming "lfg" in chat for long periods of time are gone. With my limited time for gaming, if I cannot log on and start "having fun" nearly immediately, I will just play something else and I think that's a potentially fatal issue for a low pop indie game that, imho, is primarily going to appeal to gamers 30+ yr old with many of the same constraints I experience. Maybe I'm completely off base with that last part, but anecdotally, my younger brother and his friend group would never play this game. Regardless, there were a few times in my solo playing where I asked for a group in chat, never got any hits and there was only 1 other person on the discord. At the time, it wasn't a big deal since I was primarily trying to collect mats while exploring, but that gameplay loop would maybe keep me entertained for a couple more sessions at best and I wouldn't pay money for it.

I'm not sure what the answer here is, but again, I can definitely see why my suggestion wouldn't be the best idea. Have you given any thought to a possible solution? I mean, perhaps it just is what it is and they can add "stuff" to do around town when you're lfg, idk.

I would definitely pay for a monthly sub if I knew I'd always be able to get a group, so I feel like ensuring that's a consistent play experience is the biggest barrier to my wallet the game will need to overcome.

 

[Dalton]

Discord has become the main way to find groups in the game. It does have a pretty well done LFG tool but it is rarely used. I think that is because people that not familiar don’t know about it but also would rather just hop in a voice chat and find people. If you are soloing, you can add yourself to the LFG or find others that are listed and actively form groups. As more people are online at a time the difficulty of finding a group will decrease. But myself I have never had an issue finding someone, just gotta be a bit proactive and reach out to others.

 

[Malakalmawt]

Ah, nice, in the social tab. I just found that, noted, thanks.

 

[CypherWulf]

I think the bigger threat is what CypherWulf discussed where someone logs on and cannot consistently and quickly find a group, so they log off, or they don't have a group so they never bother logging on in the first place.

But ya, perhaps being able to use NPCs is too antithetical to the spirit of the game. I was just thinking about what would get me to log on when I didn't have a group and that's the first thing that came to mind. I know my days of spamming "lfg" in chat for long periods of time are gone. With my limited time for gaming, if I cannot log on and start "having fun" nearly immediately, I will just play something else and I think that's a potentially fatal issue for a low pop indie game that, imho, is primarily going to appeal to gamers 30+ yr old with many of the same constraints I experience. Maybe I'm completely off base with that last part, but anecdotally, my younger brother and his friend group would never play this game.

Yeah, I definitely don't want to see hirelings/trusts/etc. Just something to keep players engaged and present until/while they get a group formed. Lots of grouping issues get solved naturally with a large population or a large guild, but it's always going to be difficult for players who play at off-peak times. Increased awareness and usage of the LFG tool will also assist in this.

I'd like to see a deep rework of the onboarding process for new players. Players need to be taught things like how to navigate, how to use the moon as a compass, that they need to find a group, and how to find one. As it stands, you're dropped on at the bridge with very zero information if you didn't research these things in advance. As well as a basic primer on the lore of the game.
The way I would do it is to have a prologue where you escape the Darklands and get to the south side of the Great Chasm bridge where NPCs teach you the importance of grouping up, how to revive a downed player with salts, the basic combat function of their role, etc. how to use the LFG tool, how to recognize that the moon is north, and some of the basic lore. This is the only place that I would think that combat-capable NPCs should join your party, and even then, only if there are no other players going through the prologue at the same time.
I don't know how much the NPC AI allows for this kind of scripting, but I'd have it look something like you create your character, and are shown some sort of cinematic introducing the world, then your character spawns into the world, and is promptly knocked out. A nearby NPC arives and revives the player with smelling salts, and asks them what the hell they were doing out there alone. Then, they show the player where to find the LFG tool, which is populated with NPCs if there are no players of a particular role present. Once a party with at least one of each role is formed, the rescuer NPC leaves to assist other new arrivals. The small party then works their way to the bridge, learning about the world and combat roles on their way.

 

[Malakalmawt]

I'd like to see a deep rework of the onboarding process for new players.

Ya, that's an excellent idea and something like that would immediately pull you into the world. I still like the idea of NPC party members, so having it start like that would be great, imo, but if they weren't also available afterwards, it might setup the wrong expectation, e.g. finish the prologue and discover you're without a group and potentially unable to find one right out of the gate. I don't think there's a high likelihood of consistently enough players starting near simultaneously enough to ensure a PC group. I think this game is especially vulnerable to alienating new players. It's common in most games where someone starting after the initial release/hype spawn in a world where the majority of people are doing higher level content and often find themselves essentially in a dead zone, which for Embers may render that game nearly unplayable without the charity of veteran players. I mean, based on my experience so far, you're essentially done with the starting zone like 8-12 hours in. To maintain playability, there would have to be a steady stream of new characters and that doesn't seem likely, imo, especially after the game has matured, so veterans would need to fill the gap. I've seen a few new player help events, which is awesome and certainly helps mitigate the scenario I described, but I'm not convinced it is enough. I suppose this is nearing beating a dead horse territory for me, so I'll shut up now, lol.

 

[CypherWulf]

I still like the idea of NPC party members, so having it start like that would be great, imo, but if they weren't also available afterwards, it might setup the wrong expectation, e.g. finish the prologue and discover you're without a group and potentially unable to find one right out of the gate.

You're probably right. Which is IMO, another reason to not include them to begin with.

I think this game is especially vulnerable to alienating new players. It's common in most games where someone starting after the initial release/hype spawn in a world where the majority of people are doing higher level content and often find themselves essentially in a dead zone

Agreed, I've seen a few ways that MMOs have used to mitigate this.
Modern FFXI has the "Trusts" system, which lets you unlock and summon various NPCs that you meet to form a party and solo content, as well as a system that provides very powerful gear and crafting materials to allow a new player to reach max/near max level without needing to play with other players often. (this seems like what you're advocating for, and, like I said, I consider this the worst possible option)
World of Warcraft, FFXIV, and other AAA MMOs use their incredibly large player bases to effectively ignore this problem, as well as the majority of their content being solo-friendly, which allows players to reach max level with minimal, if any party experience, to the point where both of them have had to add tutorials at max level for how to perform basic functions of a role.
I think Guild Wars 2 managed it very well, but I don't know if it could be completely adapted to EA. Essentially, there are level caps on entire zones, so any higher level characters entering the zone are down scaled to the level of the zone, making the monsters there still relevant regardless of level, encouraging party play even between players with large differences in level. Additionally, there are cosmetic items that drop specifically in particular zones, and events and quests that send higher-level characters into lower-level zones, these have the effect of mixing up the player base, and giving a reason for higher level players to interact with lower-level ones beyond charity.

Looking back to Final Fantasy XI, there is an option that isn't often used anymore due to the Trusts system, but at the time it was introduced it was pretty well used, Level sync. Basically, when a party was formed, the party leader could turn on Level Sync, and everyone in the party would be down-leveled to match the lowest level party member. This allowed higher level players to assist their lower-leveled friends while still gaining experience, as they would be fighting enemies that are challenging in relation to their temporary lower level. When it was initially implemented, you couldn't wear gear above your synced level either, so it was worthwhile for players to keep gear around of lower levels in case they wanted to do a level sync groups. This, in turn helped maintain a market for lower-level crafted and rare drop gear, since there were very few items at the time that were locked to the character.

To maintain playability, there would have to be a steady stream of new characters and that doesn't seem likely, imo, especially after the game has matured, so veterans would need to fill the gap.

I 100% agree. and the only way that's going to happen is with systems that both reward and encourage it. Implementing some variation of one of these choices will never be easy for the devs. Even without looking at the code, I know that the capability to downlevel characters without the system being designed to do so from the get-go would require a major refactoring of the underlying systems. That said, this is most definitely an issue that needs to be addressed before release. The first few hours of play for a new player really make or break the overall experience. So mitigating pain points and teaching the system, lore, and core game play are vital. Some serious consideration for new players both now and down the road need to be taken.