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The Defender: Juggernaut / Knight / Marshal Part 2

Kittik

Well-Known Member
Please see The Defender: Juggernaut / Knight / Marshal Part 1.

Continuing on from that thread:

Knight:
8 Inspire 18.png
This is an always on ability or at least thats the theory. It has a +20 (so I think this is only 20% chance to work), so with those low of odds at it's current iteration, it's an ability you probably won't have on your hotbar. If it is something that is on your hotbar, it's something that is annoying because it might work it might not but you gotta keep it on just in case. Having to use "cast it just in case abilities, which even if it does work doesn't do that much" are the worst abilities. Grade: D-
9 Mental Resolve 40.png
Up for 30 seconds on a 1 min cool down is nice. Again, not sure what +50 means but if it's 50% of damage for 30 seconds on a 1 min cool down, that's legit. (NOTE: Again, the wording is weird here as it says IncomingStatusEffectDamage and other Damage mitigation abilities are IncomingDamage, so IDFK. But if this is a damage mitigation ability, I'm expecting a big nerf to this. Anyway.) Get to 40 noob! Grade: A

Marshal. Group play: the actual OT of groups. The OG of OT's ya hear me. As an MT, probably won't hold aggro vs. the other two Defender if there is one in the group. But a solid OT as they have AoE's and an AoE stun that is probably the best ability's in the game right now. Solo play: Might be a bit more engaging than the other two, and probably a bit safer too if you needed to run away. Can MT if no other Def's in group. Best OT. Pairs well with Jugger or Knight as MT. Overall Class Grade: A-
4 Halt 6.png
AoE stun that lasts longer with better reagents. Cast this on reuse to keep mobs on lockdown. This makes the Marshal a requirement of every group. Bar none. Grade: A+
5 Pursuit 8.png
Unfortunately, becomes a very hit or miss ability. Only needed against a very few mobs in the game. But the mobs it's needed against, you almost want to cry for joy when you have it. Good movement speed buff though. 15 secs every 30 secs....deal! Grade: B
6 Pressure 10.png
Decent damage doing ability for a Defender, but again it has a word in it that gives us no clue as to what it affects. I don't know what Disadvantage means. Grade: C+
7 Sweep 14.png
AoE threat and damage. Comes in second among defenders as the most efficient damage doing ability at 6.3 stamina per mob damaged. And it has threat....to 3 mobs. Grade: A
8 Dodge 18.png
+23 to Avoid. You avoid 23% of damage, or 23% to avoid all damage? Who knows...I've given up on trying to figure it out. Regardless, it's up for 16 seconds, which is nice. Has an almost 2 minute reuse so they must think it's legit. I think it's minorly ok at 23%. Grade: C-
9 Center Self 40.png
For 3 hits you get a 50% resistance to Elemental? So, you get to take less damage from rocks thrown at you? Either that or magic is in the game. As the Marshalls level 40 ability, it's a dud. Grade: D+
 
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Pelirow

Active Member
I'd like to add that you need to think of Pursuit as a second CC, I think it deserves a grade of at least a B not C because it can be used in almost any situation. Pursuit increases BOTH movement and combat movement. This is a very useful skill in combat if a healer as massive aggro, because pursuit will allow the healer to kite without fear of being hit. Other uses:

1. Currently, tar flasks actually allow a rooted mob to get hit twice before unrooting. Pursuit is the only skill that seems to ignore this and unroot. makes root splitting easier.
2. Pursuit makes scouting forts and locations easier due to being able to run faster and slow down any significant mobs when halt is on cd.
3. Pursuit unintentionally makes travel a bit easier. I attempt to use it on cd tagging wild animals with it on my way to get an extra burst.
4. Pursuit also makes it so that a MAR can effectively "lock" down 4 mobs if needed while a group does a sprint-evac from a dungeon/fort.
5. I almost immediately Pursuit on an archer if it is difficult to get the archer on a wall. The slowed combat speed makes everyone easily able to hit a backpedaling archer, which tends to be an annoying mob to fight.

I took my taunt off my bar when getting sweep unlocked instead of pursuit, and this was with me still tanking. Sweep did enough aggro gen in lieu. If I did struggle with aggro then I probably would have dropped pressure, sacrificing a dps move to have pursuit ready if needed to save a healer.
 
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Kittik

Well-Known Member
1. Sounds like a bug.
2 & 3 I didn't consider, and does make it a more appealing ability. Being able to run faster for 15 seconds, every 30 seconds is nice.
4 & 5 is why I rated it as high as I did.

But after your points I changed the score of both the ability and the class. Crazy how one good ability can really change a class. Marshal was already the most useful Defender, now even more so.
 

Pelirow

Active Member
1. Sounds like a bug.
2 & 3 I didn't consider, and does make it a more appealing ability. Being able to run faster for 15 seconds, every 30 seconds is nice.
4 & 5 is why I rated it as high as I did.

But after your points I changed the score of both the ability and the class. Crazy how one good ability can really change a class. Marshal was already the most useful Defender, now even more so.

1. I'll have to test more and report back, you may be right.

The tradeoff is that Marshall will likely struggle the most in high end fights as MT in terms of trying to sustain itself. I'm guessing that by the end of the suite of abilities for each tank class MAR will likely have fewer defensive self-buffs or would have defensive self buffs that are a bit weaker than the ones for Knight and Jugg, and likewise won't get the valuable armor ignore dps abilities of jugg or the group protection stuff of Knight. Time will tell. I'm excited to see what other cc-like skills MAR gets, as I think so far SHS has done well designing the class. It seems OP at times, but definitely has its weaker moments and sometimes people forget Halt gets worse the second and third time it's applied, usually fails the third time in a row.
 

AdricLives

Administrator
Stormhaven Studios
1. is not necessarily a bug. They are both movement debuffs on the target and pursuit just happens to overwrite halt. I'm not sure if this is always the case though. It's probably FINE as long as its consistent.
 

jrown

New Member
Just want to point out that Halt is not a Stun its a AOE Root. Enemies can still hit you with ranged attacks or melee if you stay in range. But it is still an amazing skill.

Also Halt seems to have diminishing returns on targets rooted multiple times in a row. Seemed like -4 sec on root time.
 

Pelirow

Active Member
Also Halt seems to have diminishing returns on targets rooted multiple times in a row. Seemed like -4 sec on root time.
It does, and there's higher chance on a second or third application for the root to completely fail or break ahead of time. I think this is fantastic and the skill is pretty fairly balanced for what it does against diminishing returns.

Probably the only thing I'm not a fan of is it doesn't seem to generate as much threat as you'd think a cc would generate, so you better be ready to save the healer if you've cc'ed something.
 

Xeen

Member
It does, and there's higher chance on a second or third application for the root to completely fail or break ahead of time. I think this is fantastic and the skill is pretty fairly balanced for what it does against diminishing returns.

Probably the only thing I'm not a fan of is it doesn't seem to generate as much threat as you'd think a cc would generate, so you better be ready to save the healer if you've cc'ed something.
My solution is to Halt -> Provoke as provoke does not do any damage and has enough range on it to be used vs halted melee out of reach, therefor it does not consume a 'hit' charge towards breaking the cc effect and you don't have to worry about distance and being hit. This establishes solid agro on the mobs that I am off-tanking/muti-tanking/cc-kite tanking etc. Quickly changing targets in battle for specific abilities like threatening strike and ressure on the main target to make sure I hold agro + land auto attack.

Marshalls view every battle as a test of their wits ;) As long as my party members aren't breaking cc, handling 5 mobs at a time isn't a big deal.
 

Pelirow

Active Member
Marshalls view every battle as a test of their wits ;) As long as my party members aren't breaking cc, handling 5 mobs at a time isn't a big deal.
Halt still needs a cc indicator like stun and daze, it can easily slip by people that something is rooted because there's no visual indicator yet.
 

Xeen

Member
Halt still needs a cc indicator like stun and daze, it can easily slip by people that something is rooted because there's no visual indicator yet.
Simple, the mob isn't moving at full speed/at all or near you, you don't need to be hitting it. In the case of humanoids using sprint, their +ms sprint bonus partially counters the way Halt works with -100% ms root debuff (such that 150% -100% = 50% movement speed, for example) allowing them to move at reduced speed for awhile immediately after initial engagement. Also it does have an indicator if you target the cc'd mob and look at your target panel UI for the big purple hand, sure you might need to mouse over it to see what that debuff means the first couple times.

Looking at ToT, if it's targeting the OT, leave it alone. Select your MT and fight whatever their target is or the currently weakest mob. If you only have one tank, focus on the weakest target one at a time as the tank may be temporarily swapping targets to maintain agro on all.

Visual effects and tells help, especially if mobs had them, then players could actively and skillfully guard against or evade mob skills, but there is enough information available in this scenario already to identify and avoid breaking cc + a bit of awareness goes a long way. After all, this is a 'no hands held' kind of game.

Something like sleep, you see z's coming off of the target or they slump over. With daze, they are kinda stumbling around in a stupor. These tells make sense.

What kind of indicator would you propose for Halt though?

I'd rather NOT see a ton of flashy graphics or icons in the game world, especially ones that don't really fit within reason, indicating the status of an enemy. There should be some information given, perhaps a tad more than 'hmm this enemy is not moving' but not literal roots popping out of the ground showing they are held in place or a chain wrapped around them or w/e. I'm fine with looking at a given target and seeing debuff icons on the UI target panel, but I don't want the world cluttered with too many unrealistic graphics. In the case of WoW and a Druid using the 'root' spell, sure it made sense to see literal roots pop out of the ground holding a mob in place. For Embers and Halt, that would not make any sense. Even a glowing red octagonal stop sign above them would be too unsightly.

Learn well, play well, prosper. I like that a person's own irl skills, knowledge, and awareness come into play.

I'd say the same thing about navigating if the world was properly built for that like having the sun rise predictably in the east maybe slightly south of the horizon (depends on where you are on whatever this planet is and the time of year, etc.) and moss growing on the northern surfaces of trees, rocks, etc. and other navigational aids, but as is... we need a damn compass to get our bearings and a way to tell time (sticks and rocks aligned with compass + shadows works). We don't need glowing navigation markers or a minimap pinpointing our location or even icons indicating camps and points of interest on the map or UI/HUD compass, just a literal compass that you can whip out in your hand and it points north. Interpreting direction and navigating should be at the hands of the player. There's currently no way to reliably navigate through dense, unremarkable terrain, especially heavily forested areas. A trash-can discussion, I know.... I'm trying to make a comparison here that if there is going to be a certain theme of 'no hands held' with a bit of realism and 'tells' for the player to observe and make use of, then it should be uniform.

Waiting to see what's in store concerning the navigation and compass discussion. I'm hoping there will be another profession added such as 'survivalist' that gives access to various skills like pathfinding/direction sense, telling time, setting up a camp for recovery and minor crafting like consumables, but not armor/weapons (better bring wood for camping!), animal lore, etc.
 

Pelirow

Active Member
nothing flashing, something the same as daze or stun would be enough. It's especially tricky to tell if a mob is cc'ed at night so the floating indicators help. Maybe you're right and people just need to be savvier, but one of the biggest frustrations when I played MAR was folks being completely unaware that mobs were rooted because the other cc abilities get indicators but halt doesn't.
 
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Xeen

Member
nothing flashing, something the same as daze or stun would be enough. It's especially tricky to tell if a mob is cc'ed at night so the floating indicators help. Maybe you're right and people just need to be savvier, but one of the biggest frustrations when I played MAR was folks being completely unaware that mobs were rooted because the other cc abilities get indicators but halt doesn't.
Practice and having your friends learn the deal when playing with certain classes, specs, people, and abilities is going to be important. Never learning and improving might get you excluded from a group, so there is definitely incentive.

Teaching people to stay back about 3-4 agro lengths with my pulling style didn't take long. At first it was 'ahh you got 4', then it was 'yeah just back up and wait', boom single pulls. Granted, I explained exactly what I was doing in the presence of Elloa and maybe she's going to push for AI linking agro to be changed :p Even if I do get 4, I'm prepared to keep 3 busy while the MT handles the active target. The added distance allows me to keep the extra enemies farther away from the group and avoid any mistakes, but that's not always so easy, especially in a tight environment like parts of CV.

Maybe something as simple as a 0.1m high cylinder/model mesh on the enemy glowing purpleish-pink (same color as halt skill icon) would suffice. A tiny indicator that isn't too out of character for the game world, but clearly visible if you pay attention. Must contrast well against the red 'active target' circle at their feet as well.
 

Pelirow

Active Member
Maybe something as simple as a 0.1m high cylinder/model mesh on the enemy glowing purpleish-pink (same color as halt skill icon) would suffice. A tiny indicator that isn't too out of character for the game world, but clearly visible if you pay attention. Must contrast well against the red 'active target' circle at their feet as well.
Yes, something subtle and modest like the soft glow that blinks then slowly fades out when a chanter mezzes in EQ would be enough. I don't want easy street, just enough visual based cues that halt was used, because the animation is a poor "heads up" to group mates that I used the ability. Not always easy to tell folks when I'm halting in advance. At the same time with full groups of 6 sometimes it was just faster for dps to leeroy it 95% of the time so the 5% of the time halt would clutch save a group, they were already wired to whack all the things. The tougher the game gets the more intelligence is necessary.

And definitely would be helpful in tight spaces like CV; there were anumber of times I was just trying to save healers from getting whacked and I think you had a mob mezzed but it was easier to whack the mob to get it to whack me than try to explain to the healer he was getting crushed from behind before he splatted. Some of those CV pulls were utter chaos and I was pretty exhausted; I'm sure with more deliberate group setup and coordination we wouldn't have wiped.
 

blackhalo

New Member
Halt and Pursuit makes you able to kite enemies around, you can use it to control a group of enemies and stand away from other mob attack range while tanking one of them leading to a strategic play that does require more finesse but you take 0 damage from other mobs this way if you can keep it up. I do agree the Center Self is kind of an oddity but I think that's for any future plans of higher level content when there might be non-physical damage dealing enemies or more of them. In the case they have dungeons that require high resistance/defense against certain elemental types that could make Marshal have more value as a tank.