Feedback Running Away Is *Always* A Valid Strategy?

[Sintax]

If you've played the game long enough, invariably 2 things happen:

1. You die a lot, especially while trying to desperately run away from a fight
2. You see the pro-tip assuring you that running away is always a valid strategy

The problem is that #2 is false to the extent that it's become a meme within the community. Running away is almost always not a valid strategy. I have found that I'm usually better off making a desperate last-stand, if the mob's health is low enough. If it isn't, I resign myself to the near certainty of death.

Somewhere between when you guys created the game hints (see attached) to launching the game, you've drifted far from your original designs. Perhaps you want to revise the game hint or revisit this topic? The reason running away is almost always not a valid strategy is because:

1. Most mobs are faster than you
2. Most mobs have some form of movement debuffs (slow, root, stun, etc) which prevent your escape, even when you want to just GTFO
3. Most mobs will chase you to the ends of the planet until you're dead

I've been meaning to post about this for a while now, but today has been an especially egregious day in the "dying a lot while running away" category — and naturally that game hint came up in the wake of all those deaths — so I finally finally got the motivation to post a thread on it.

 

[Keiban]

1. Most mobs are faster than you
2. Most mobs have some form of movement debuffs (slow, root, stun, etc) which prevent your escape, even when you want to just GTFO
3. Most mobs will chase you to the ends of the planet until you're dead

Totally agree with these points.
I find the debuff part especially ridiculous. No cooldown, no diminishing returns, no immunity timers for some of the most powerful CCs immaginable...

 

[Sintax]

That got me thinking. Movement speed + movement debuff. Why is that even necessary on any mobs?

If they are faster than you, they'll catch up to you, right?

 

[Keiban]

mh, the "Most mobs are faster than you" isn't quite correct, at least when you sheath your weapons, only very few are fast I'd say. It's really the debuffs that allow a lot to catch up.

 

[Sintax]

I dunno. All the animals certainly are. Rats, bears, deer, elk, wolves, raccoons, the small spiders ...

But in any event, I don't see the point in giving mobs both of those things — move speed (to be faster than players) and also a CC (to slow players). That's a doubling down on run prevention, which is even more at odds with the idea that running away is always a valid strategy.

 

[Chisaineko]

I think it's kind of cool that the mobs are the ones with both higher speeds and all of the usual debuffs that most mmo's give to players for manipulating combat... its like we're the mobs.

 

[Meladry]

Yeah I run (hah) into this issue all the time - either the tooltip "Running away is always a valid strategy" needs to be taken down, or this needs adjusted. You simply can't run away from most fights once you aggro. I find it ridiculous that mobs can all hinder your movement, including greys. Why do they all get an ability like that? Each mob is supposed to be unique, but this just makes them largely the same.

One or the other is fine - this is supposed to be a harder game. But both? There's no chance for us to avoid a bag run then. Which is very frustrating to play.

 

[Sintax]

There's no chance for us to avoid a bag run then. Which is very frustrating to play.

That's the crux of it — it's extremely frustrating — and the importance/relevance of this really can't be overstated in light of the studio's renewed focus on player retention. Frustration drives people away and works against player retention efforts. These seem like small things, but when experienced repeatedly over time, become big things.

FWIW, simply understanding and focusing on player pain points will improve player retention. Creating new systems (like fishing) while ignoring those pain points is at best a temporary band-aid. It doesn't solve the problems driving people away.

 

[LeVarBurton]

I would be carful making the game easier.. you can "de-leash" most mobs by running away. Many classes have cc or self heals to allow enough time to get away, if not you can also pop a regen or health potion. If you can simply run away easily the game will lose its challenging nature and element of danger, which is the reason why many of us play it. You can also get movement debuff resists which lessen the time you are "snared" as well as increase combat movement speed stats to counter these. It sounds like you may be choosing to run when low on health and do not have enough health to run away to that range where the mobs "de=leash". Curious what class are you Sintax?

 

[Sintax]

You cannot de-leash mobs that have faster base speed than you, which again appears to be most mobs. You would have to CC them, as you noted, but most classes don't have a CC arsenal to accomplish that.

Curious what class are you Sintax?

I have been playing the Berserker for several months through all 50 levels. My regular group consists of a Knight, a Warlord and a Brigand. Everyone has observed this same issue, though the Brigand is able to mitigate the problem with their arsenal of CC's (when they're not on cooldown). So, what class do you play?

That said, I think you're confused about this post. I'm not advocating making the game easy. I'm advocating either:

a) removing the game hint because it's objectively not true and makes a bad impression on the game/studio (ie do you guys play your own game??)
b) or preferrably making the game more reasonable

And right now, *I think* the balance is tilted too far toward unreasonable because mobs have BOTH faster base speed AND movement debuffs. If the game was not sufficiently challenging, we would not be trying to run away from fights! Making it so that we have almost no chance of escape is where the game becomes unreasonable ... and frustrating.

 

[Sintax]

ALSO WORTH NOTING ...

In Grizzled Peaks, you cannot even use water to get away (from the stalker). You suffer damage when you attempt to do so — you are hit repeatedly by "Undone's Wrath" — and it's reproducible (I wanted to be sure I was understanding the game mechanics). Presumably, this is a hard-coded effect named after lead dev Undone because he doesn't want players using water to .... *dun dun dun* ... run away from a fight. (see combat log attached)

(Personally, I think this type of mechanic/dark humor is only adding insult to injury for a game struggling to retain players, and thus not at all advisable)

But again, this is another example of the inconsistency between telling players that running away is ALWAYS A VALID STRATEGY but then deliberately sabotaging attempts to do just that, sometimes in the most artificial ways (hard-coded dmg effects). Even by using water, which last I checked is valid terrain (ie not a cheese). You'd attempt the same IRL.

 

[Undone]

ALSO WORTH NOTING ...

In Grizzled Peaks, you cannot even use water to get away (from the stalker). You suffer damage when you attempt to do so — you are hit repeatedly by "Undone's Wrath" — and it's reproducible (I wanted to be sure I was understanding the game mechanics). Presumably, this is a hard-coded effect named after lead dev Undone because he doesn't want players using water to .... *dun dun dun* ... run away from a fight. (see combat log attached)

(Personally, I think this type of mechanic/dark humor is only adding insult to injury for a game struggling to retain players, and thus not at all advisable)

But again, this is another example of the inconsistency between telling players that running away is ALWAYS A VALID STRATEGY but then deliberately sabotaging attempts to do just that, sometimes in the most artificial ways (hard-coded dmg effects). Even by using water, which last I checked is valid terrain (ie not a cheese). You'd attempt the same IRL.

Some of our mobs have swim animations, others do not. The ones that do not we typically don't let them enter the water as it would look weird. For these mobs you cannot use the water to "pause" combat as you would get hit with the wrath. The real solution to this is to allow all animals to swim regardless as to if they have animations or not. Something we might do just to avoid confusion.

 

[Sintax]

Something we might do just to avoid confusion.

It is definitely confusing because it looks like a bug at first, until it happens again. Then it's clear that it's deliberate, but it's not clear why it's happening or what to even do about it. The game is now inflicting damage to you that you can't escape or mitigate. Upon further reflection, this has also happened to me with Mistcrawlers on the peninsula in the Meadowlands.

In the screenshot I attached, I was getting auto-crit for 29 dmg every few seconds, which is enough to leave you frantic and watching helplessly as your character dies. I would think it goes without saying that such mechanics do not make for a fun time or fun game, and FWIW, it was enough to make me seriously think about whether it was time to do something more enjoyable with my time.

If mobs can't swim, players will expect that they shouldn't be able to do any damage without ranged capabilities (where there is some sense of the attack range). That doesn't seem like an unreasonable expectation. Rather than force mobs into the water, how about a more reasonable and measured response — reset mobs to full health and let them scamper off.

PERSPECTIVE: SUCCESSFULLY FLEEING A FIGHT IS NOT A WIN CONDITION

By win condition, I mean it's not a positive outcome where a player "wins cheaply" or wins at all. So, I'm genuinely curious as to why you would insist on a "pursuit to the death" conception of mob AI, where once a fight starts, one side or the other has to die. There is no middle ground, like running away, which is exactly what the load screens in the game advise and indeed encourage you to do.

From my perspective, when you run, the fight is already lost and it feels like a loss. The mob resets to full health. The time and resources you spent (pots, reagents, ember essence, etc) are gone. This is not a "cheap victory", but should be a legitimate way to end a fight.

 

[Undone]

It is definitely confusing because it looks like a bug at first, until it happens again. Then it's clear that it's deliberate, but it's not clear why it's happening or what to even do about it. The game is now inflicting damage to you that you can't escape or mitigate. Upon further reflection, this has also happened to me with Mistcrawlers on the peninsula in the Meadowlands.

Every time it hits it sends a notification to chat that the mob cannot reach you.

In the screenshot I attached, I was getting auto-crit for 29 dmg every few seconds, which is enough to leave you frantic and watching helplessly as your character dies. I would think it goes without saying that such mechanics do not make for a fun time or fun game, and FWIW, it was enough to make me seriously think about whether it was time to do something more enjoyable with my time.

Ideally this would never be encountered by players as this is an anti-exploit mechanic. Because the world is so big and our team is so small it's nearly impossible for us to manually verify every bit of nav mesh in the game. It just so happens that the place that players experience it the most is near water with creatures that cannot swim. You are correct in that this should be rectified.

If mobs can't swim, players will expect that they shouldn't be able to do any damage without ranged capabilities (where there is some sense of the attack range). That doesn't seem like an unreasonable expectation. Rather than force mobs into the water, how about a more reasonable and measured response — reset mobs to full health and let them scamper off.

I do not agree that a player should be able to simply reset a mob by jumping in the water.

PERSPECTIVE: SUCCESSFULLY FLEEING A FIGHT IS NOT A WIN CONDITION

By win condition, I mean it's not a positive outcome where a player "wins cheaply" or wins at all. So, I'm genuinely curious as to why you would insist on a "pursuit to the death" conception of mob AI, where once a fight starts, one side or the other has to die. There is no middle ground, like running away, which is exactly what the load screens in the game advise and indeed encourage you to do.

From my perspective, when you run, the fight is already lost and it feels like a loss. The mob resets to full health. The time and resources you spent (pots, reagents, ember essence, etc) are gone. This is not a "cheap victory", but should be a legitimate way to end a fight.

I do not insist that, nor do NPCs behave in that manner. Every NPC has a unique set of sensors and related parameters. This means that each NPC can spot you at varying ranges and have different detection thresholds depending on how much time you spend in each of their respective sensor regions. Once you are acquired as a valid target the NPC does what it can to keep you in their vision. If you spend enough time outside of their detection zones then they will drop you as a target. But, as I'm sure you know, different mobs have different movement speeds, different sensor distances, different pursuit abilities, etc that can make that more or less difficult. There are plenty of instances where I have ran away from mobs. Sometimes I make it, sometimes I do not.

But to put this issue to rest I have removed this tooltip for the time being.

 

[Sintax]

Every NPC has a unique set of sensors and related parameters.

That may be true under the hood, but the end result is that most everything still behaves largely the same way.

There are some exceptions, notably between humanoids and creatures, but for the most part, any differences that exist are too marginal to detect. Which is why running away almost never works and why CC abilities are so crucial to getting away. Please take this as feedback, not as theorycrafting for the purposes of discussion. It's how this game plays when you've killed thousands and thousands of everything.

 

[Keiban]

Ideally this would never be encountered by players as this is an anti-exploit mechanic.

The IMO normal and expected behavious is that, if a mob can't hit you, it goes on evade and you can't hit it either in return. That's enough to solve the "farming from sneaky spots", no need for mobs to nuke you.

 

[Sintax]

no need for mobs to nuke you.

I second this sentiment. I think this is why I've been getting the feeling that the design philosophy behind the game is deliberately punitive, seeing measures like this being chosen over the more reasonable options available.

Having said that, I also feel like I've been giving a lot of criticism or negative feedback lately to the extent that some may think I hate the game. I don't.

So, I just want to add that despite some very rough edges and very to-the-point feedback I've given on this topic and others, there is still much I love about Embers Adrift. And I'm hopeful that by continuing to give feedback, it can become an even more enjoyable — and successful — game.

Cheers for keeping an open mind on all this and more!

 

[Undone]

The IMO normal and expected behavious is that, if a mob can't hit you, it goes on evade and you can't hit it either in return. That's enough to solve the "farming from sneaky spots", no need for mobs to nuke you.

I second this sentiment. I think this is why I've been getting the feeling that the design philosophy behind the game is deliberately punitive, seeing measures like this being chosen over the more reasonable options available.

The issue here (for me at least) is that now gives the player a way to essentially "pause" a fight and heal up. Even if the mobs reset and heal it acts as an escape hatch that is not meant to be there. Again, this whole mechanic should very rarely be encountered by players as it indicates a problem with that particular spot that we need to fix in other ways.

Having said that, I also feel like I've been giving a lot of criticism or negative feedback lately to the extent that some may think I hate the game. I don't.

So, I just want to add that despite some very rough edges and very to-the-point feedback I've given on this topic and others, there is still much I love about Embers Adrift. And I'm hopeful that by continuing to give feedback, it can become an even more enjoyable — and successful — game.

Cheers for keeping an open mind on all this and more!

No worries! As long as discussions stay civil and productive that's the whole point of all of this

 

[LeVarBurton]

You cannot de-leash mobs that have faster base speed than you, which again appears to be most mobs.

You can de-leash mobs that have a faster run speed than you do, I've done it all the time vs raven, deer, drolsc.. (unless they are not faster but they seem to hit me alot when running away).

 

[Keiban]

I second this sentiment. I think this is why I've been getting the feeling that the design philosophy behind the game is deliberately punitive, seeing measures like this being chosen over the more reasonable options available.

That's my impression as well. Or rather, I'm not sure if the intention is to be deliberately punitive, or just to be different then other games, even if it means having worse solutions. In many cases the game is more restrictive and punishing than the "originals" like EQ, DAoC etc. ever were.

Even if the mobs reset and heal it acts as an escape hatch that is not meant to be there.

So why do mobs even de-leash at all? With that philosophy they shouldn't; they should chase you forever.
That was the point of this thread, it contradicts you own loading screen Tip of "Running away is always a valid option". Maybe you should change it to "Running away is sometimes a valid option (but we try our best to prevent that)".

IMO it makes total sense that some mobs can't swim and stop chasing you there. Maybe lingering on the shore for a few seconds (while being invulnerable), then healing and resetting.