Melee weapon choice: speed vs. auto-attack damage

[nikgervae]

I've heard slightly conflicting info about which melee weapon types are best, and figured I would start a discussion about the topic that's more general than just for my Warden. Here are some things I would like to learn about:

• How does auto-attack speed relate to baseline damage, skill attack damage, and total DPS? For example, 2-handers have bigger damage but a long 5- or 6-second autoattack, whereas daggers are super fast at 2 seconds but of course lower per-strike damage. Base damage per strike seems to scale to skill attack damage, and skills are on their own cooldowns. So, does it make sense to usually go with the biggest, baddest weapon for even bigger skill damage, or do I want to maximize the sustained auto-attack damage over time? Or, keep reading for more factors!
• How does skill use and cooldowns interact with the auto-attack timer? I know skill use resets the auto-attack timer, but I have not managed yet to look into how this might affect my combat rotation. Usually after my initial rotation I just pop my skills as they come off cooldown, unless I know I need to time a particular effect for its own sake.
• How do things like +Hit, +Penetration, and such relate to auto-attack time? Do they correlate to wanting faster/smaller-damage weapons versus slower/bigger-damage weapons?
• More generally, how do you handle the various bonuses and their pairings with weapons? I have been stacking +Haste and +Stamina Regen, for example, so I can use more skills for longer. Do you prefer +Hit, +Damage, +Penetration, something else? Why? If you have a choice between two weapons of the same type, with similar bonuses but on different stats, which do you give priority to?
• Are particular roles/specializations more suited to particular weapon types? I heard a couple times that Wardens and Berserkers want 2H weapons, for example. What about Brigands though?

Also, I know that the Positional stuff is also important: clearly frontal for soloing, while anything can work in groups. But if you have thoughts about that, I'd like to hear them too. (By the by, what does a half-filled Positional arrow mean? Most are solid white, but some are half white and half black.) I really agonized about weapon choice with the big quest reward as I like the feel of dual-wielding but folks overwhelmingly told me to go with the frontal weapons for soloing, and while I'm glad I did, I wish I could find a second option for party work that lets me slice & dice from the side or back.

 

[Keiban]

• How does auto-attack speed relate to baseline damage, skill attack damage, and total DPS? For example, 2-handers have bigger damage but a long 5- or 6-second autoattack, whereas daggers are super fast at 2 seconds but of course lower per-strike damage. Base damage per strike seems to scale to skill attack damage, and skills are on their own cooldowns. So, does it make sense to usually go with the biggest, baddest weapon for even bigger skill damage, or do I want to maximize the sustained auto-attack damage over time? Or, keep reading for more factors!

Auto-attack speed has no impact on damage/dps per se. Faster weapons tend to have a higher base dps though. You can easily calculate it by (Weapon MinDmg+MaxDmg/2) / Weapon Delay.
And yes, skill damage scales straight from base damage. The higher level you get, the bigger the portion of your skill damage becomes (because you get more skills to use and they also get cheaper) and auto-attack damage becomes kinda irrelevant. So yes, in general (for strikers) you want to use the slowest 2h you can get.

• How does skill use and cooldowns interact with the auto-attack timer? I know skill use resets the auto-attack timer, but I have not managed yet to look into how this might affect my combat rotation. Usually after my initial rotation I just pop my skills as they come off cooldown, unless I know I need to time a particular effect for its own sake.

I could be wrong, but afaik skill use does NOT reset the auto-attack timer.

• How do things like +Hit, +Penetration, and such relate to auto-attack time? Do they correlate to wanting faster/smaller-damage weapons versus slower/bigger-damage weapons?

Not sure what you mean here. The only thing affecting your auto-attack swing timer is Haste. Hit/Penetration etc. are % based increases, not flat amounts, so the weapon speed is irrelevant.

• More generally, how do you handle the various bonuses and their pairings with weapons? I have been stacking +Haste and +Stamina Regen, for example, so I can use more skills for longer. Do you prefer +Hit, +Damage, +Penetration, something else? Why? If you have a choice between two weapons of the same type, with similar bonuses but on different stats, which do you give priority to?

My priority list is like: Positional/Dmg > Pen > Hit > Haste.
+1 Dmg is worth about 6.7 Hit. So if you have the choice between a +5 Dmg and a +25 Hit Item, the +Dmg is better.
I rate Haste pretty low because while it (technically) increases DPS, it does nothing if you look at it in regards to Dmg per Stamina spent. And Stamina is still the limiting factor (at least in a group setting).

• Are particular roles/specializations more suited to particular weapon types? I heard a couple times that Wardens and Berserkers want 2H weapons, for example. What about Brigands though?

Also, I know that the Positional stuff is also important: clearly frontal for soloing, while anything can work in groups. But if you have thoughts about that, I'd like to hear them too. (By the by, what does a half-filled Positional arrow mean? Most are solid white, but some are half white and half black.) I really agonized about weapon choice with the big quest reward as I like the feel of dual-wielding but folks overwhelmingly told me to go with the frontal weapons for soloing, and while I'm glad I did, I wish I could find a second option for party work that lets me slice & dice from the side or back.

IMO it's the same for all strikers: grab the best 2h Axe (because of +DMG side bonus) for group play and a 2h long Sword (because of the +DMG frontal bonus) for solo.
Half-filled arror is just another indicator that it's the secondary (100% instead of 125%) bonus.
You might also want to check https://forums.embersadrift.com/index.php?threads/the-ultimate-juggernaut-class-guide.4540/ and https://forums.embersadrift.com/index.php?threads/dpsn-advice.2709/ for info on stats.

 

[nikgervae]

Thank you for the detailed response!

Auto-attack speed has no impact on damage/dps per se. Faster weapons tend to have a higher base dps though. You can easily calculate it by (Weapon MinDmg+MaxDmg/2) / Weapon Delay.
And yes, skill damage scales straight from base damage. The higher level you get, the bigger the portion of your skill damage becomes (because you get more skills to use and they also get cheaper) and auto-attack damage becomes kinda irrelevant. So yes, in general (for strikers) you want to use the slowest 2h you can get.

That's much as I figured. It's kind of a bummer, because I find dual-wield combat much more engaging in play.

I could be wrong, but afaik skill use does NOT reset the auto-attack timer.

Okay cool. Someone had said they noticed it, but I haven't.

My priority list is like: Positional/Dmg > Pen > Hit > Haste.
+1 Dmg is worth about 6.7 Hit. So if you have the choice between a +5 Dmg and a +25 Hit Item, the +Dmg is better.
I rate Haste pretty low because while it (technically) increases DPS, it does nothing if you look at it in regards to Dmg per Stamina spent. And Stamina is still the limiting factor (at least in a group setting).

I figured Haste was good for killing things faster. I've been told it decreases auto-attack time as well as skill cooldowns. I've already got lots of +Stamina Regen gear.

IMO it's the same for all strikers: grab the best 2h Axe (because of +DMG side bonus) for group play and a 2h long Sword (because of the +DMG frontal bonus) for solo.

Again, shame this leads to cookie-cutter builds. I'm gonna stick to my dual-wield for now as at level 22 it doesn't seem a big difference, but I may have to cave to the numbers game at some point.

Half-filled arror is just another indicator that it's the secondary (100% instead of 125%) bonus.

Finally a clear answer to this. Thanks!

You might also want to check https://forums.embersadrift.com/index.php?threads/the-ultimate-juggernaut-class-guide.4540/ and https://forums.embersadrift.com/index.php?threads/dpsn-advice.2709/ for info on stats.

I will have a look at those.

 

[nikgervae]

One point I missed on earlier read of the DPS'n Advice post is that dual wield is better for longer fights where you have to pace your stamina use. It's nice to see there's some good reason to dual wield. It seemed there was a lost design opportunity to balance things by having cooldowns scale to weapon speed, but even if so, that design axis is too tied in to everything else to change now. In any case I am still enjoying the feel of dual wielding, and I just got a good main-hand dagger upgrade, so I will continue to do so!

My Brookhollow 2H sword remains competitive on base DPS. I'm going to be testing damage with use of skills today if I can.

 

[csthao]

There is no downtime as a berserker. Assault with a 2h, switch to dual wield and save 20% stamina to use fury and follow through. Rinse and repeat.

Works wonders. Stack haste and you'll be doing super fast attacks.

Should give it a shot. It's berserker class or nothing lol. They just do everything better, faster, longer, and cooler.

If you can get 50% haste or better, stick with a Longsword. 4 second delay on a 2h. Fury will drop it down to about 2 seconds per swing. You're swinging just as fast as a dagger now.

You're welcome!

 

[nikgervae]

There is no downtime as a berserker. Assault with a 2h, switch to dual wield and save 20% stamina to use fury and follow through. Rinse and repeat.

How does switching to dual wield save 20% stamina? I didn't know stamina cost varied with weapons.

 

[Keiban]

How does switching to dual wield save 20% stamina? I didn't know stamina cost varied with weapons.

He meant: Save up 20% stamina to use fury + follow through.
I personally don't like that tactic as you a) can't have a bow (and I was often pulling in group) and b) you are can't use any skills while follow through is active, so no AE, no Guts etc.

 

[csthao]

He meant: Save up 20% stamina to use fury + follow through.
I personally don't like that tactic as you a) can't have a bow (and I was often pulling in group) and b) you are can't use any skills while follow through is active, so no AE, no Guts etc.

Why can't you use bow? Assault works for bows too, switch to dual wield when they get in melee range.
Guts is only really needed if you're soloing. AOE can be used once follow through ends and you regen your stamina back.

 

[Keiban]

When I was playing, it was pretty much always in a full group. Using a bow there (other then for pulling) sucks because you can't reliable make use of the positional.
And Guts is super useful in groups, you can offtank adds for quite a bit, especially with alch 1 you are taking less damage then the main tank.

 

[csthao]

It's all situational, you could have multiple bows for different positionals. You can pull aggro when using the 2 combo skills and use guts afterwards.

 

[nikgervae]

He meant: Save up 20% stamina to use fury + follow through.

Oh, you mean hold in reserve, not save on cost, got it.

 

[Keiban]

It's all situational, you could have multiple bows for different positionals. You can pull aggro when using the 2 combo skills and use guts afterwards.

Now it's multiple bows? What happened to dual wield? Or you gonna sheath your weapon and swap from inventory? Every few seconds when a mob changes position or you change to a different one? That will surely do wonders to your dps compared to just doing 2 steps with your 2h...
I can't imagine managing to pull agro auto-attacking with the skill combo and if it worked it would be a very bad idea to pull agro while silenced. When you do hard content, an orange/red Manslayer kills you in 2-3 hits, you'll likely don't live long enough to use guts anymore...

 

[csthao]

Now it's multiple bows? What happened to dual wield? Or you gonna sheath your weapon and swap from inventory? Every few seconds when a mob changes position or you change to a different one? That will surely do wonders to your dps compared to just doing 2 steps with your 2h...
I can't imagine managing to pull agro auto-attacking with the skill combo and if it worked it would be a very bad idea to pull agro while silenced. When you do hard content, an orange/red Manslayer kills you in 2-3 hits, you'll likely don't live long enough to use guts anymore...

I'm just giving suggestions. You wanted to "make use of positional" there's a weapon for every positional. If it takes you more than a second to move into a different position then that's on you. If a mob changes position your tank is doing something wrong.

If you're trying to do "hard" content, you shouldn't be in that area anyway unless you have a person that's high enough level to GEL you up to par because there's no incentive to fight higher level mobs. A group that's fighting orange and reds, even a tank can't take more than 2 or 3 hits. Just go somewhere else. That's common sense lol.

 

[zabatiz]

There is no downtime as a berserker. Assault with a 2h, switch to dual wield and save 20% stamina to use fury and follow through. Rinse and repeat.

Works wonders. Stack haste and you'll be doing super fast attacks.

Should give it a shot. It's berserker class or nothing lol. They just do everything better, faster, longer, and cooler.

If you can get 50% haste or better, stick with a Longsword. 4 second delay on a 2h. Fury will drop it down to about 2 seconds per swing. You're swinging just as fast as a dagger now.

You're welcome!

No downtime as a zerker? Are you kidding me. Assault sucks stamina and does hardly much more damage than advantage strike. At lvl 29 for example with my weapons it does 77 damage for 18% stamina vs. advantage strike which shows 66 damage for 8% stamina. There are far more efficient ways of fighting than jamming assault then popping Fury. Plus why not take advantage of the aoe's for far more output per stamina point than assault. Assault is nothing more than a situational, stam/dmg dump on a single target... no thanks.

 

[csthao]

No downtime as a zerker? Are you kidding me. Assault sucks stamina and does hardly much more damage than advantage strike. At lvl 29 for example with my weapons it does 77 damage for 18% stamina vs. advantage strike which shows 66 damage for 8% stamina. There are far more efficient ways of fighting than jamming assault then popping Fury. Plus why not take advantage of the aoe's for far more output per stamina point than assault. Assault is nothing more than a situational, stam/dmg dump on a single target... no thanks.

There are, and I promise you advantage strike will not be in your rotation at level 50, but assault will. Also, advantage strike is 8% with 2 second cast and 10 second CD. Assault is instant cast NO CD. The choice is clear isn't it?

AoE will not come into play until you have wild swing, and you most definitely need second wind. Also, it's only good to do aoe with other zerkers or soloing for most efficiency.

Tag 8-10 mobs, pop fury, pop guts, alchemy wild swing for bleed, spam wild swings, alchemy second wind, repeat.

 

[zabatiz]

There are, and I promise you advantage strike will not be in your rotation at level 50, but assault will. Also, advantage strike is 8% with 2 second cast and 10 second CD. Assault is instant cast NO CD. The choice is clear isn't it?

AoE will not come into play until you have wild swing, and you most definitely need second wind. Also, it's only good to do aoe with other zerkers or soloing for most efficiency.

Tag 8-10 mobs, pop fury, pop guts, alchemy wild swing for bleed, spam wild swings, alchemy second wind, repeat.

I agree with the aoe tactics,. but still not sold on Assault, its certainly situational.. At 29 ive been able to pull 3-4 mobs with just the 2 aoes I have now.. looking forward to the higher lvl skills to come.

 

[nikgervae]

I did some empirical tests at a target dummy. There's a lot of variability from run to run, but here are some rough numbers with an armored dummy of the highest damage output combos. I tried to use the same beginning rotation and then hit each ability as it came off cooldown. Note that these are not comparable items (whatever that means), but the best dual and 2H weapons I happen to have.

Weapon Combo	Type	Position	Auto-Attack or with Skills	Average DPS over 60 seconds
Silver Pryknife + Xanton's Signaure Sword	Dagger (2s) + 1H Offhand	Rear	skills	20.67
Chitin Bark Knife + Xanton's Signaure Sword	Dagger (2s) + 1H Offhand	Front	skills	17.25
Stark Greatsword	2H Greatsword (5s)	Side	skills	16.07
Brookhollow Long Sword	2H Longsword (4s)	Front	skills	13.28
Silver Pryknife + Xanton's Signaure Sword	Dagger (2s) + 1H Offhand	Rear	auto-attack	10.47
Silver Pryknife + Xanton's Signaure Sword	Dagger (2s) + 1H Offhand	Side	auto-attack	9.33
Chitin Bark Knife + Xanton's Signaure Sword	Dagger (2s) + 1H Offhand	Side	auto-attack	8.2
Stark Greatsword	2H Greatsword (5s)	Side	auto-attack	4.62
Stark Greatsword	2H Greatsword (5s)	Rear	auto-attack	4.2

 

[nikgervae]

BTW a guildie berzerker told me recently he swaps weapons from 2 two hander to dual wield when he runs out of stamina. I've been keeping a bow in my other slot and hadn't even thought of that! Might give it a try.

 

[csthao]

Use throwing daggers

 

[nikgervae]

Use throwing daggers

Kunai do pitiful damage and are useful only for pulling. I have been in several fights recently where being able to switch to ranged was key. Even so it isn't all that often. But back again on the other hand, Warden is a very stamina-efficient class and it's only if we get a lot of adds that I run out of stamina. I just got a manslayer sword though and I am going to do some more testing and see how it stacks up against the Silver Pryknife and Chitin Bark Knife (which I got a second of last night so now I can be super-stabby ).