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Feedback Fun?

is this feedback?

Gutz

New Member
Please understand, I'm not trying to be an ass, but having played almost all the big mmo's for the last 25 years, I have to ask, which part of this game is suppose to be fun?
I've played solo, duo, full group, dungeon run, but none of it is fun other than the fact of being in voice chat with my mates
The game feels dead, empty and devoid of anything fun from the game it self.
 

Elloa

Administrator
Stormhaven Studios
Hey very sorry that you feel that way Gutz. Considering what you are describing, and that you have experienced several group setup, I imagine that our concept did just not worked out for you. While we have much to work on still, and certainly can improve many areas, the game is supposed to be fun as it is. If running arround in our world, progressing your character and teaming up with friends wasn't enough to iniatiate atleast a little sparkle of fun, I imagine it will never do.

Thank you very much for taking the time to test it though!
 

Battlestorm

Member
Please understand, I'm not trying to be an ass, but having played almost all the big mmo's for the last 25 years, I have to ask, which part of this game is suppose to be fun?
I've played solo, duo, full group, dungeon run, but none of it is fun other than the fact of being in voice chat with my mates
The game feels dead, empty and devoid of anything fun from the game it self.
@Gutz - I'm curious, is there anything specific about the game that made you feel that way other than perhaps the server not meeting a preconceived number of active players? Sounds like you had a group to play with, so maybe numbers aren't really the issue. Not that I'm worthy of the time, I just think that the expectations for gameplay are otherwise well-defined. I'm curious to to know how it hit pretty well for me and missed for you.

I've been playing MMO's for 25 years, too, so I feel like we may have lived a similar gaming life and come out with two different expectations for this type of MMORPG. In any case, even if not for me, details can be helpful - perhaps they can't be fixed (meant to be that way) but they can sometimes help with guidance (an unintended outcome of the gameplay that needs to be addressed).

If this was a troll, you got me. If it wasn't, I think everyone can appreciate your investment of time in testing/playing.

Otherwise, I think @Elloa makes the most important point, it's still in beta; some revisions are left to be made, so it may still make sense for you to come back after some final revisions to see if the experience is the more in line with your ideal gameplay.
 

RazorBrains

Well-Known Member
If this was a troll, you got me. If it wasn't, I think everyone can appreciate your investment of time in testing/playing.
I think its a valid question, where is the fun coming from? You don't have to be a troll to ask this question.

If you rank the subset of things to do in this game against every other MMO ever made that you played, where does its features stack up compared? If you think a 1 out of 10 is still fun, then that sets the bar a bit low don't you think? Pretty much makes ever MMO fun to you. Some people expect a little bit more. So asking where the fun is seems like a valid question because maybe the OP is missing something.

Here is my list and ranks, If I missed something feel free to add to the list.

Exploration 2 - If you feel running around in slow motion is fun, then pretty much every MMO is fun to you. Does this game reward exploring to you? I have played many games where exploration is rewarded, do you get that sense in this game? Would you consider this an exploration game? Finding chests, buffs shrines, exploration XP, exploration rewards ... do these exist?

Loot 1 - Think this game has interesting loot? LOL Worst loot I have ever seen in an MMO hands down.

Combat 1- If it wasn't for the stamina bar, I littler ally couldn't tell if people were afk or not.

Interesting skills and effects 2 - Nope

Economy 1- ? Doesn't exist really

Housing 1- ? Doesn't exist

Interesting grind 2- ? Not fun

Raiding 1- ? Doesn't exist that I know of

Mob skill use or mechanics 2 - I have seen a few mobs with mechanics up to level 30, pretty basic stuff, unless you get a bunch on you at the same time without CC.

Crafting 3- Do you think this game is a top crafting game to you? Enough said on this.

Harvesting 4 - Doesn't strike me as particularly interesting.

So to answer the OP where is the fun for me ....
Answer = Grouping and hanging with your mates, Crowd Control makes things a little interesting, mob difficulty is decent and not on EZ mode.
 

Gutz

New Member
I'm not trying to troll, i'm not trying to be mean.

I Think RazorBrains pretty much summed up my gameplay experiance in this game, tho i'd rate harvesting a 2.
Exploration 2 - If you feel running around in slow motion is fun, then pretty much every MMO is fun to you. Does this game reward exploring to you? I have played many games where exploration is rewarded, do you get that sense in this game? Would you consider this an exploration game? Finding chests, buffs shrines, exploration XP, exploration rewards ... do these exist?

Loot 1 - Think this game has interesting loot? LOL Worst loot I have ever seen in an MMO hands down.

Combat 1- If it wasn't for the stamina bar, I littler ally couldn't tell if people were afk or not.

Interesting skills and effects 2 - Nope

Economy 1- ? Doesn't exist really

Housing 1- ? Doesn't exist

Interesting grind 2- ? Not fun

Raiding 1- ? Doesn't exist that I know of

Mob skill use or mechanics 2 - I have seen a few mobs with mechanics up to level 30, pretty basic stuff, unless you get a bunch on you at the same time without CC.

Crafting 3- Do you think this game is a top crafting game to you? Enough said on this.

Harvesting 4 - Doesn't strike me as particularly interesting.

SANDBOX ENVIRONMENT, what does it mean in this game? if it's a sandbox, where is my bucket and shovel, i want to make a sand castle. What part of the game can i change/interact with?
GROUP-BASED GAMEPLAY, wow grouping up in an mmo, what a novel idea, strange that someone would play an mmo to play in a group, right?
IMMERSIVE EXPERIENCE, sure, it's immersive that i attack 1 bears and it squeals for the entire zone, having 15 bears hunt me for 500 meters?

Thats the 3 headlines of selling points of the game, and the only one of them which i consider true is Group-Based Gameplay.

Thats why i'm saying if the only feature in this game is "play with your friends" as something that is fun, why in the world would i do that in this game, insted of any other game that is fun on top of having my friends in it?

Take a new game like "Tower of fantasy" a pay to win asian failed game that just had a world wide release recently. The game has absolutely fun movement mechanics and combat mechanics, while the rest of the game is somewhat basic and forgetable, but the fun of all the momement and crazy stuff you can pull off and laugh about in the mechanics alone is enough to lift some of the mediocer and ignore some of the horrific.

Take a slightly older game which also aims to please the older mmo crowed like "Project Gorgon" One of the first things that happens is you meet a skelleton that says "Oh no, not <you> again" <you> = char name, as you murder him, he drops a potion of pig and as a noob you drink it, you get polymorfed in to a pig and make pig sounds in your speech with pig attacks. The humor in that game is so spot on, i went on and became a psychology/pig spec using an attack called "Tell me about your mother" Just how amazing is that?! The humor and comunity in that game are just amazing.

I can't find the selling feature of this game, what in this game is suppose to lift up all the not interesting parts of this game and keep people interested beond the "Honeymoon phase"?

So, Battlestorm asked me for my experiance:
I did group play, we wiped a lot, my brother was afk and did some soloing, later we met up he had loot because he was chain pulling 1 star mobs, while my group was pulling 1-4 mobs that were 1-2 stars, but we died a few times and had som learning experiances. In the end i was didn't get much gear, and not as many xp as someone who was afk for 1/3 of the time? My brother geared me up when i met up with him, why progress with group play if it's more efficiant to do it solo both loot and exp wise?

I went in to a dungeon with my group, the camera was bouncing off the ceilings and walls, even tho i had the camera pulled in to my char, making me motion sick because of the of the unexpected and intense jitter of the camera, i had to quit my group, leave my loot bag behind and leave before it got worse.

Like i mentioned i also went to play in a duo group with my brother, and we blasted through all the single pulls 1-2 star mobs, and it was a lot better than being in a full group, even tho the full group had veterain players and we were all on discord talking and cordinating.

Reaching level 6 and getting to choose your sub class, was the most underwhelming experiance i've had in the game, i thought it was a suppose to be a mile stone, but insted it was a disapointment, nothing happened, nothing changed i got 1 more ability, but it wasn't worth while, my next 2 abilities would be taunts, but not impressive ones. Well damn, i decided to go make some armor, because now i could carry more, so i made as much plate as i could and put it on, and then i slowly waddled around.... not being full speed and not being able to attack at full speed, because as a tank class, you shouldn't ware to much plate, obviously? Bummer, but i changed back my pants to some leather and went on my way to go try out my new armor. I find a mob and attack and it did the same damage to me, the armor had no effect? Everything hurt just as much as before? I decide to go around the map and look around, looking for stuff i've missed, didn't find anything new really, other than 15 bears that all decided to chase me.

At the end of it all, i quit feeling empty and disapointed that the game i've been waiting to try turned out to be the bare bone basics of an mmo without any fun features.

Sorry for my rambeling, but i hope i get my point across. I wish this game and all it's players well, and I hope that the devs will sit down and think about this one thing "What makes our game fun? How do we improve on that?"
 

shadofx

New Member
Your observations are on point, but we're here mainly to watch the cake being baked, not just to eat it.

Regarding armor, some armor stats require you to be in a combat stance to have any effect, and you don't get all your specialization-based equip weight at level 6, instead that represents the maximum equip weight you will recieve in the course of leveling.
 

Malakalmawt

New Member
which part of this game is suppose to be fun
Right out of the gate, my initial impression, based on the combat, left me feeling like I was playing a multiplayer Dragon Age/KOTR where you only control your player and instead of pausing to queue up actions, you communicate with the rest of your group in real time. That made me smile. The harvesting/crafting are status quo. I actually thought the exploration stood out since you don't get a mini map and had to put some effort into wayfinding, etc.

I played levels 1-5 in a group, which happened to be the first time I played with any of them. So ya, I wasn't even playing with my buddies and ended up having a genuinely great time. Playing solo, well, that wasn't so great. I tried to play on Wednesday, used chat and the LFG, and didn't find a single party memeber...I logged off after 20 min because the solo gameplay loop is arduous and I don't feel like I can make meaningful progress solo, at least not enjoyably. I abhor scheduling my game time around other peoples' time, so there is a high likelihood I will not have a consistent group to play with; I've already run into that problem and in its current state I don't think this is a game I can casually play, which means it's probably a game I won't play long term without serious revisions to the solo/casual experience. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for group content, I'm all for kicking birds out the nest/no hand holding gameplay, but I have kids/work/business/etc and I need to be able to log on and nearly immediately start having fun or I'm going to be spending my limited time elsewhere; my days of spamming chat and waiting around "lfg" are long gone and it's my understanding there will never be an auto-grouping feature, which is fine assuming I can have fun without it. I get the feeling many people are in the "Bye, Felcia" category regarding that opinion, but games that don't check those boxes don't last and aren't going to give a great financial ROI and I don't think I'm going out on a limb when I say the studio wants to make money.

EA has a long way to go to meet the criteria I'd pay a monthly fee for, but I think the potential for the game to be one of the great indie titles is certainly there. I think if you didn't find the group combat fun, it's probably never going to be fun for you and that's ok. I'm willing to invest my time in testing and feedback because the idea of the DAO/KOTR type tactical combat is really exciting for me. Anyways, that's my two cents.
 

RazorBrains

Well-Known Member
Your observations are on point, but we're here mainly to watch the cake being baked, not just to eat it.

Regarding armor, some armor stats require you to be in a combat stance to have any effect, and you don't get all your specialization-based equip weight at level 6, instead that represents the maximum equip weight you will recieve in the course of leveling.

Armor? If a DPS at level 25 took off all their gear and swapped it for completely newbie level gear, I doubt anyone would even notice. Gear effects are basically meaningless in this game. Levels are way more important. 1% to 3% values on gear are completely unnoticeable. I am pretty sure someone can play AFK and nobody would even notice while they were in the bathroom until the mob died and they were in the wrong stance. Debuffs on mobs? nobody cares, completely irrelevant. People only think they are working because they are told its working. I know there have been debuffs that were completely broken and nobody even knew. It wouldn't even surprise me if they are still broken, because the values are so weak that nobody even knows.

Reality is, the Goldilocks levels for fun is level 5-15. These are the levels that seem to be the most fun for most people. If you are not having fun here, I doubt you will have fun later. I never heard someone level 25+ say they had more fun at high level over the 5-15 levels. So if you are thinking things are going to get better, probably not going to happen.

The devs are pretty much locked into the game being what it is right now. If the number of changes in the next 3 months is anything like what we have seen in the last 3 months, don't expect much change at all. They are in the tweaking phase, changes are extremely small now. What are the major changes on the horizon? A new level 40 zone? How does a level 40 zone help you during the early levels?
 

RazorBrains

Well-Known Member
I personally think people are not evaluating the game as it is now, but what it COULD BE. It could be infinite possibilities, what it will be is a different story.

For all the people that say they love this game, I ask this question, which systems do you think are so well done that the devs can pretty much check the box off and say its done. At this point we should be seeing some completed systems so which ones are they? Which system is completely done with no more modifications necessary.

Here is a list of areas (add more if you want):

Exploration
Loot
Combat
Interesting skills and effects
Economy
Interesting grind/leveling
Raiding
Mob skill use or mechanics
Crafting
Harvesting
Grouping Features
Crowd Control
Chat/Social Options
Storage
Mounts/Travel Options
Housing
 

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
For all the people that say they love this game, I ask this question, which systems do you think are so well done that the devs can pretty much check the box off and say its done. At this point we should be seeing some completed systems so which ones are they? Which system is completely done with no more modifications necessary.
It is unlikely I will ever consider any of our systems "done"; they are in a constant state of iteration and will be for the foreseeable future. But isn't that the nature of an MMO? At the end of the day some players will bounce off of our game for one reason or another. And to some degree that is expected as we are somewhat of a niche product. Given your complete distain for just about everything we are doing I fully expect that you fall into that camp.
 

RazorBrains

Well-Known Member
Given your complete distain for just about everything we are doing I fully expect that you fall into that camp.
Well its not disdain for what you are doing. Its for what you are not doing. Just saying.

It is unlikely I will ever consider any of our systems "done"; they are in a constant state of iteration and will be for the foreseeable future. But isn't that the nature of an MMO?

Yes but MMO's in beta, will have their systems in a state where they are at or near release. Bug fixes and minor tweaking is what betas are for. This game is not labeled as pre-alpha its supposed to be in beta. You have stated you are near launch. I am judging based on those things.

Before a game is released there are systems that are at a stage that is good enough for players. If an MMO can improve on them down the line fine, but the system just prior to release should be in a state where its good.

The question I asked above is a simple question. Where do people feel the system is in a release state. If no more changes were made they would still be happy with it.

I would think you as devs you would want this valuable info. This way you can focus your efforts on areas of concern.

At the end of the day some players will bounce off of our game for one reason or another. And to some degree that is expected as we are somewhat of a niche product.

You are right about niche. I am your average old school MMO player. On forum sites I'm always on the opposite side of retail wow players and current MMO EZ mode games. They call oldschoolers like me a niche group. And yet, your game doesn't even appeal to me because so many systems are totally lackluster. How small is this Niche going to be that actually plays past level 30? Couple hundred players, IF that?

What I hear from people is you have the fundamentals of an old school MMO, but lacking all the ingredients to make it good. Most people that have anything good to say about a system are talking about what it could be, not what it is. Those players haven't come to reality yet, that their dreams are not the same as your plan. So they are lagging behind a bit on the objectivity curve. Once they figure out what WILL BE, their opinion will be much closer to where I am now.

But lets also understand, how many of these positive people exist in your little bubble? My guess its an extremely small number, and its getting smaller as we get closer to release.

I would suggest to rethink you plan, start figuring out why people think these systems are subpar, and get them to a place where they are at least decent and acceptable.
 
I do think this is a valid question but think the wait and see train of thought is also kind of valid.

At the moment Embers feels like a group combat simulator with some exploration. All the other fluff you may get, even in an old school MMO, is currently absent or at least it feels that way.

What's fluff or fun though? Well unfortunately it generally lies in the fantastical which goes against the current Embers design philosophy.

I know its an old argument but without magic it's not just magic in the sense that you lose spellcaster classes, but also everything that goes with it. If you removed magic from any current MMO they would feel basically how Embers feels, a group combat sim (which Embers does very well mind) with some exploration. Without magic you lose not just spellcasters but the fantasy and the escapism. Wizard towers, trolls hiding under the bridge, a vampire in his castle, a werewolf prowling the forests, a necromancer raising the dead, Druids befriending animals, pets and summons, turning into a bird or wolf, fighting skelingtons instead of deer. You lose fantastical architecture and symbolism associated with magic. It really is a hard sell and I think what a lot of people bounce off of.

Quests, lore and maybe the Ember system will elevate the game but at the moment we don't know to what extent.

Maybe the niche is the appealing to an MMORPG player looking for a group combat simulator. I think Embers does this very well but it does position itself as the ARMA of MMORPG's.
 

RazorBrains

Well-Known Member
I agree with you that removing magic really limits the games appeal and possibilities. However I think you can still make a lot of good systems without "magic".

Even with that considered, lets go with Alchemy and "Non-Magical" abilities. I have seen games with these that are cool. Like potions being thrown or used debuff the mob. Like explosion, poison, oil slick, …

Abilities, or a well timed shield block that stuns/prone the mob so others can get a special attack damage. Or a debuff that when used allows other players that pay attention to follow-up with a specific type of move that does extra damage or put the mob in a different vulnerable state. Like lowers resistances or such. They need abilities where people are waiting for specific timing to occur like blocks, parries, dodges etc...

How about having a basic attack that regens your stamina (like eso), so that people can weave this attack into there rotation for better performance and wont run out of stamina so fast.

This would allow combat to be much more tactical and a lot less boring.

I do feel like the game not only doesn't have magic, but is trying to be very basic and boring in its approach. Its like no-one on the design team has any imagination.
 
There are also aspects of real life religions and beliefs that you could cleverly incorporate without going super magicy, especially in a medieval setting. Healing, possession/exorcism, Witchcraft, Paganism, Druidry and people's experiences of those, whether we are a believer or not, are examples in our mundane world.

Maybe Ember will be that thing.
 

Charlizd

Active Member
Stormhaven Studios
What one finds fun may not reflect to others, doesn't mean it's not true.
You're either gonna enjoy it or not and if you don't then hopefully at some point someone will make something that tickles your fancy.
One thing people need to realise is that we "developers" are not some kind of elite being that can do everything miraculously to suit/please everyone. We never will even if we were perfecting systems because there will always be someone who's shit that doesn't stink and that we were not living up to their standards.
Always has been, always will be.

We are doing what we can as a small team to deliver what we hope to be a fun experience and will continue to iterate on that process the best that we can.
Do we foresee that the game will suit everyone? of course not and it would be naive of us to do so, however we will continue to do what we can to take on feedback and make changes where possible.
So please keep constructive feedback coming.

Will all requested changes be put in place?...not a chance in hell but we take all feedback on board and apply it where necessary and have introduced many things that were never originally meant to be in game based on the communities feedback.

Sorry the game doesn't appeal to you guys and I hope you find something that lives up to your hype. We wish it could have been us but maybe not this time.
However you guys choose to spend time with us here we hope it's to try and help make the game better and if not, thanks for your time.
 

Aeldar

Active Member
Interesting topic. I believe "fun" is a highly personal thing.

Some like the game and some don't.

Personally I really like the game and here are examples of my personal fun in this game:
- Relaxing/slow gameplay with time to chat with friends
- Get new gear to my characters. I haven't analyzed the efficiency of better gear (just looking at the numbers and seeing new visuals...) but the game is still in beta and things are in the process of being balanced.
- Exploring (not expecting a reward, exploring for the sake of exploring)
- Excellent visuals with day/night experience
- Excellent scenery with a long viewing distance, e.g. watching a sunset in Meadowlands
- Excellent music/atmosphere
- Communicate with teammates and planning the way forward (i.e. in a dungeon)
- Improve crafting skill in order to explore the higher tier items to equip my character or give to other players
 

Elloa

Administrator
Stormhaven Studios
There are also aspects of real life religions and beliefs that you could cleverly incorporate without going super magicy, especially in a medieval setting. Healing, possession/exorcism, Witchcraft, Paganism, Druidry and people's experiences of those, whether we are a believer or not, are examples in our mundane world.

Maybe Ember will be that thing.

We have a pretty solid Lore that we have been working on, but it's only starting to be revealed as the quest and NPC's dialogues are getting in. Next step (Lore-wise) will be objects, lore books and such (no ETA when that will happen though)
One of our goal with the LOW FANTASY settings is that you start your adventure in a pretty mundane way, but then, there are some things that are out of place. Obviously, there is the presence of Ember, a mythical substance that started the war in the Southern Kingdoms... but there is other things too. What are those ruins. Where are the people that build them? What are those creatures lurking in the distance...
Our goal is to arrise your interest and want to discover more. So the clues will be revealed step by step through your journey and as you progress, you will discover that the world is much less mundane than you though it was....

This is pretty subtil of course, and requiere some fine tuning in term of Lore sharing!

May be we need to hint it better via our social media and website too....
 
We have a pretty solid Lore that we have been working on, but it's only starting to be revealed as the quest and NPC's dialogues are getting in. Next step (Lore-wise) will be objects, lore books and such (no ETA when that will happen though)
One of our goal with the LOW FANTASY settings is that you start your adventure in a pretty mundane way, but then, there are some things that are out of place. Obviously, there is the presence of Ember, a mythical substance that started the war in the Southern Kingdoms... but there is other things too. What are those ruins. Where are the people that build them? What are those creatures lurking in the distance...
Our goal is to arrise your interest and want to discover more. So the clues will be revealed step by step through your journey and as you progress, you will discover that the world is much less mundane than you though it was....

This is pretty subtil of course, and requiere some fine tuning in term of Lore sharing!

May be we need to hint it better via our social media and website too....
Yes definitely hint at the plan with Ember more and what it will potentially bring to the audience at large.
 

Bluarcher

New Member
I like the question, is it fun? The rest should be what is or isn’t fun. I also agree that this game won’t appeal to everyone nor should it. We don’t expect the studio or the dev team to be super beings that can whip out changes in an hour. But we do expect, since you are asking us for our opinion in these forums, is to hear us. We’re here to help you because we also want what you potentially have to offer us. Restating the obvious serves no one, we know it’s only Beta, we know the devs can’t do everything, we know there are some who complain about everything and we know that for some it’s only sunshine and rainbows.

I like how RazorBrains put it with the list and rating system and I would have to agree with him in most areas. He may be a little rough in his description and analysis and he is a bit on the negative side, imho, but there is a basis to his statements and he is just trying to provide you with what you are asking for, feedback. I too feel like Gutz, there are a lot of elements to the game that are seriously lacking at the Beta phase.

One of those phases, RazorBrains points out, is that the systems are not there and they should be at this phase. I agree, look at a game like Valhiem, systems work great, for the most part, just missing full content, Early Beta Phase. FYI – also a small team. There are a lot of bugs for EA at this phase, right now one of my toons can’t craft but the other two can, WTF? Different section that I will post to later. That’s just one of many MAJOR bugs that we have, and we are pointing out and I know they will be fixed.

For me, the Group play is fun, but finding a group is HORRIBLE. Yes, yes, yes small numbers, wrong levels, etc. But, at early levels this makes the game a grind, and it shouldn’t be, that is where you will keep or lose people. For me, the starting zone should be packed with options. With one toon I ground the first 10 levels solo, ouch. Way over leveled my crafting skills but couldn’t get enough funds to efficiently manage my bank and stash to handle all the junk.

There are issues with the armor and the drops or crafting of it and they don’t seem to make sense why I can’t wear a full set of starter armor in the starter zone while several levels above starter zone level. I get it, realism. But the realism is that few will stick around if the start of the game is weak or just plain not fun.

Why is Lore just now being incorporated into the game, I would have thought it would have been a bigger part of the starting zone at Beta. Don’t you want to get the word out that there is so much more coming? I don’t think I noticed anything about lore, there are always ruins and strange things, but something tangible would be great. Not my show, but also not how I would have done it.

I’m not mentioning specifics to get answers to those things nor do I want to hear why I’m wrong. You asked Me what My thoughts were and I’m giving them to you. What you do with that information is entirely up to you. I responded to your write up about what this game was, I like most of the aspects of what you are offering and wanted to play and see what it was all about. But there are issues, as expected, it’s beta.

I notice a lot of Us vs Then when someone says something negative, and I see the “I’m sorry you feel that way” posts. Why don’t we see more, “Why is it you say that and what do you suggest”? I’ve seen it in some posts but definitely not all. We aren’t attacking you, well most of us, must of use just want to provide our point of view and what we like. End of the day, it’s all on you devs if this fails or is a great success. It’s your vision, not mine, you just invited me to come play with you and tell you what I think. See above.