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Feedback Add explicit EXP values to encourage party formation

is this feedback?

shadofx

New Member
In most MMOs early game leveling is based on solo play. Following that training would likely result in players bouncing off after grinding 1-chev enemies for hours.
If the tooltip for the chevrons could detail the exact EXP reward, new players would be more clearly incentivized to join parties to take on higher-rank enemies instead.

It may also be a good idea to have new players auto-join LFG immediately after completing the introductory quests, so more experienced players can more easily reach out to help.
 

Dalton

Well-Known Member
The color of the Chevrons already indicate if you’ll get more/less XP. Also grouping means you get a % bonus XP. They want to refrain from giving players the actual value of XP.
 

shadofx

New Member
But new players would not know that grouping gives bonus EXP if there's no obvious incentive to group up in the first place. The party bonus tooltip is also rather vague.
In fact, they are actually be incentivized against grouping up, because the gathering system is such that group members with the same gathering specialization would race over any gathering nodes they encounter.
I don't see any benefit of hiding XP values from the player.
 

AdricLives

Administrator
Stormhaven Studios
If you're looking at exp values then you can look
at exp %. And at low levels the % difference between solo and group content is noticable and easily quantifiable. Giving exact numbers can promotes unnecessary optimization including rejecting group members to stay "optimal".

Group content giving better exp is clear and quantifiable by players, I don't see why minute details would need to be exposed.
 

shadofx

New Member
Metagamers generally have no trouble determining exact values on their own, through online guides or datamining, and will gatekeep their groups no matter what. Nothing you do to the UI will stop them.
On the other hand, no matter how clear or unclear the party EXP UI is, it doesn't matter if the party never forms, because new players can't see it until they form a party.

If players do eventually use EXP data to gatekeep, then it can be disabled for higher level areas where it happens. For first map, exposing EXP values has zero downsides and only benefit.
 

CypherWulf

Member
If players do eventually use EXP data to gatekeep, then it can be disabled for higher level areas where it happens. For first map, exposing EXP values has zero downsides and only benefit.
Hard disagree IMO. If you give that information once, and don't give it somewhere else, or worse, take it away, you're changing fundamental information for player agency. As it stands, I always know exactly how many XP I need to get to the next level. 100. Whether the mob I'm fighting gives me 0.1 or 5, I know I'm making progress.

The team has been quite clear on their goals of creating a MMO that eschews some of the more immersion-breaking conveniences that have become the defacto standard throught the MMO space. They're experimenting and trying to create the feeling of a more dangerous, unexplored world that doesn't particularly care if the player characters live or die, while still providing players enough information to make decisions that lead to overcoming that adversity. It's a delicate line to walk, and I think that on the most part EA represents the best attempt in recent memory to accomplish that.

Like I've said in other threads, the biggest issue boils down to player onboarding. A new player is never explicitly told in-game "when you fight as a group, you'll earn more experience, and you can take on bigger challenges, you should go do that", or "Use the chevrons to determine the strength of the enemies around you, here's what they mean". They just find themselves dropped into a world without many of the tools that they have become accustomed to over the last 25 years of MMO evolution, minimaps, compasses, UI elements that provide a wealth of information that the character would never rightfully have, exact numbers of HP and level for their enemies, exact XP values, etc.
 

shadofx

New Member
Hard disagree IMO. If you give that information once, and don't give it somewhere else, or worse, take it away, you're changing fundamental information for player agency. As it stands, I always know exactly how many XP I need to get to the next level. 100. Whether the mob I'm fighting gives me 0.1 or 5, I know I'm making progress.
Not sure what this means, I'm proposing to give additional info only on the first map. You'll know you're making progress when you're making progress, as always. The extra introductory info is just to let new players understand their options.
The team has been quite clear on their goals of creating a MMO that eschews some of the more immersion-breaking conveniences that have become the defacto standard throught the MMO space. They're experimenting and trying to create the feeling of a more dangerous, unexplored world that doesn't particularly care if the player characters live or die, while still providing players enough information to make decisions that lead to overcoming that adversity. It's a delicate line to walk, and I think that on the most part EA represents the best attempt in recent memory to accomplish that.
I don't think the game is particularly dangerous, there's no character permadeath, nor even exp loss on death. The screen's dark at night but spam tab and you know exactly where everything is. The game is just extremely monotonous when played solo.
Like I've said in other threads, the biggest issue boils down to player onboarding. A new player is never explicitly told in-game "when you fight as a group, you'll earn more experience, and you can take on bigger challenges, you should go do that", or "Use the chevrons to determine the strength of the enemies around you, here's what they mean".
I agree that the issue is onboarding. Something should tell the player to party up. Exposing EXP values would achieve this organically.
They just find themselves dropped into a world without many of the tools that they have become accustomed to over the last 25 years of MMO evolution, minimaps, compasses, UI elements that provide a wealth of information that the character would never rightfully have, exact numbers of HP and level for their enemies, exact XP values, etc.
But then why does the game have a LFG tool? That is not a "classic" MMO feature, nor is it immersive to telepathically know the existence of other players in need of a group.
 

AdricLives

Administrator
Stormhaven Studios
I agree that the issue is onboarding. Something should tell the player to party up. Exposing EXP values would achieve this organically.

I still don't understand this. To see the better exp in a group you need to be grouped. YOU ARE ALREADY IN A GROUP! It didn't organically promote the group, it already happened. They cannot compare % or numerical EXP values until they are already grouped. And once they are grouped they can see 8% per kill compared to 2% per kill as well as they can see 8XP per kill vs 2XP per kill, this only matters when you've reached the point of the game where solo/grouped exp both give you <1% exp which is not for a while, so if they haven't grouped at lvl 30 I doubt seeing some exp numbers is going to change their playstyle.
 

shadofx

New Member
I still don't understand this. To see the better exp in a group you need to be grouped. YOU ARE ALREADY IN A GROUP! It didn't organically promote the group, it already happened. They cannot compare % or numerical EXP values until they are already grouped.
The chev tooltip would say "Grants X% for a solo kill, Y% per player for a party of 2, Z% per player for a party of 3...etc." to all players, solo or not.
 

Blyte Plays

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, I think that elaborite tool tip, with a break down of XP for all possible groups, floating over every monsters head, is a terrible idea. First zone only, or not. Its incredibly immersion breaking, and gaudy.

I think it would be easy to have an NPC like Rhonda tell you, "You will accomplish much more out there and go further if you learn to work in groups with others." **Que offering a group with others task, to earn more noobie prizes.
 

CypherWulf

Member
But then why does the game have a LFG tool? That is not a "classic" MMO feature, nor is it immersive to telepathically know the existence of other players in need of a group.
LFG tools have been a part of MMOs since the begining. FFXI had one in 2003 when it released, and EverQuest allowed you to set a LFG message that would show you in a list to everyone in the zone, eventually expanding to this:1660863163964.png

It's a Tool that has been around literally from the beginning of 3D MMOs and MUDs before them. The reason for it is to ensure that players are able to find the groups that they need to progress.
 
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shadofx

New Member
I'm sorry, I think that elaborite tool tip, with a break down of XP for all possible groups, floating over every monsters head, is a terrible idea. First zone only, or not. Its incredibly immersion breaking, and gaudy.
It wouldn't show up over monster's heads all the time, it would only show up when you mouse over the chevrons in the monster's portrait.
I think it would be easy to have an NPC like Rhonda tell you, "You will accomplish much more out there and go further if you learn to work in groups with others."
I think that would be a good idea too, if a bit inorganic. I mentioned above that I think players should be automatically be placed in LFG when they finish the intro quests. What are your opinions on that?
LFG tools have been a part of MMOs since the begining.
I concede that. I guess perspectives would change depending on one's personal exposure, but people do commonly point to this tool as a "newfangled thing which ruins community socialization". I'm not of that particular opinion, but I do think that LFG itself is somewhat un-immersive.
 

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
I concede that. I guess perspectives would change depending on one's personal exposure, but people do commonly point to this tool as a "newfangled thing which ruins community socialization". I'm not of that particular opinion, but I do think that LFG itself is somewhat un-immersive.
To be fair to your earlier point EQ had no such tool at launch! And while I do agree that most LFG tools are viewed as "newfangled things which ruins community socialization" I would argue that tools that auto group you are the ones that ruin the experience. We see nothing wrong with a LFG tool whose sole purpose is to be a social lubricant. Our tool is simply a persistent way to advertise you are looking for a group - you all still have to talk to one another to put that group together.
 

RazorBrains

Well-Known Member
@CypherWulf I like that LFG tool you posted. Having comments and level range is good.

I haven't seen the LFG tool embers has for a few months but if it was like before, it was way too restrictive and not enough info to form a party properly.

I am against the tooltip, unneeded, better solutions exist.

People are soloing because solo is faster. When you count all the hassles involved in making groups like time to form, time to get everyone to destination, time wasted for afk's, losing heal/tank/dps and having to go to a completely new area, then back again once that person comes back. All these problems are causing massive group downtime.

Solo overall is much faster, considering you can go exactly to the perfect xp spot, logout when you want, and log right back in exactly at the spot and pick right back up xping. Unfortunately solo is also boring for a lot of people.

Adding a summoning and recall stone would fix this problem without hurting the solo players game.

In regards to people knowing which is best solo vs group, if grouping was the best believe me people would figure it out. When people are yapping in general asking for players the word would get out.