Random things I'd like to see

[Blyte Plays]

Rare spawns/items added to tower island bats in meadowlands. These bats have no prefixes. Would be nice to have uniques like the bloodied and diseased. Also for the bats in redshore.

4-Chev rare turtle added to NE ridge backs in meadowlands, "Tiny Mountain"

More daggers, especially in 30+ monster range. I havent found one, and they are now the only 2 second delay weapon left. I've killed all the creature types extensively that at 30+ and found no daggers. I might be unlucky, but assume others will be as well... it really stinks, when you are actively seeking one.

Momma bears added to the bear cave in Red Shore. Momma bears added to the bear field in meadowlands. Bear cave pelts in redshore adjusted to lvl 25 hunting skill.

More general item/rare passes in redshore.

Dungeon entrance on redshore beach made active. Along with grizzled peaks!

Big bleeding strike for the beserker! That is influenced by crits, heavies, glances, positional, buffs etc...

A cloth/silk armor set that reduces threat

A camoflauge personal buff alternative to lay of the land, for the warden, that greatly reduces aggro radius and ranged threat.

A magic belt of bears strength that increases weight allowance. Added to the bear areas somewhere.

Sprint ability added to briggand.

Mounts. 20->pony, 35->riding horse, 50->ember stag/wolf/bear

4-Chev bosses (variety of which will be up) added to the ember drift dungeons. And quests to take them down. With back story that they are trying to manipulate ember into dark magic.

Drift dungeons added to all the zones, with varied level and theme.

Collection quests for wolf claws and spider fangs in meadowlands. Giving necklace rewards made from some of the fangs.

Plate armor dropped from exile guards and fancy hide armor dropped from exile hunters/woodsmen. It's not fair we have to look at these models but cant wear the stuff ourselves.

Need chainmail added as well. We see it on you GMs, rude!

More visible armor for leather wearers. It's way over due.

Chest/shoulder/helms craftable. AND DAGGERS

Queen Spawns for the northern ants in red shore.

Named aggressive bunny in redshore.

Updated Exile Smithy drops in redshore. They still drop the level 10 gear, from when they used to spawn in north new haven exiles. Also should probably bring the smiths back to n. Reach, with that note being dropped eluding to an effort of the exiles to smith weapons to attack Raven rock.

Mountain lions.

Green skins.

More aberrations like the mire to encounter below. Perhaps something with more intelligence.

A neutral people. Perhaps dwarves in the mountains of grizzled peaks. We can do quests or kill common enemy to improve faction with.

The eradication of the kunai. Heavy Xbow addition to the defenders. Cant tell you how out of place it seems. I dont know who the nurato fan is on your team who sliipped this into the game, but they should be dealt with harshly.

 

[AdricLives]

Really great suggestions. Some are already on my list, and some have been added

I dont know who the nurato fan is on your team who sliipped this into the game, but they should be dealt with harshly.

lol, thematically these could be adjusted although I'm sure some are fond of the Kunai. Throwing axes or throwing daggers just don't have that clean concise name. Clearly they should be Shurikens

 

[CypherWulf]

Named aggressive bunny in redshore.

If it's not some variation of "Rabbit of Caerbannog" we riot.

The eradication of the kunai. Heavy Xbow addition to the defenders. Cant tell you how out of place it seems. I dont know who the nurato fan is on your team who sliipped this into the game, but they should be dealt with harshly

PLEASE this. I'm not mad about throwing knives, but tanks need a way to get and hold agro at range in order to make longbow mobs not obnoxious. If you want to keep throwing knives, fine, but make them ordinary weapons that the tank can use their agro skills with.

I'd be in favor with replacing them with a light crossbow. A 1h ranged weapon that can be used with a shield (or banner for supports). Doesn't take the longbow's place for pulling, keeps the tank armor up, and allows the tank to use their agro skills on longbow mobs. Bonus effect of giving banners more weapon variety.

 

[Undone]

At this point we have no intentions in giving Defenders a ranged weapon. Longbow mobs require a different set of tactics which may temporarily shift defender responsibilities in the group.

 

[CypherWulf]

At this point we have no intentions in giving Defenders a ranged weapon. Longbow mobs require a different set of tactics which may temporarily shift defender responsibilities in the group.

The problem is that those different tactics boil down to "hope it doesn't back out into another group when it targets a different character because nobody can hold threat".

The defender and support are effectively prevented from doing their jobs during a fight with a longbow mob, since if the defender goes in to fight, they'll get aggro and the mob will run away from the party. Without the defender holding threat, any signifigant heals that the support provides will get aggro, leading to a 3 chev longbow arrow to the face, which is enough to 2 shot an on-level support.

So now you're fighting a 3chev mob with 4.5 characters instead of 6, and whichever one does the most damage, and therefore the most threat has to run out and use their ranged weapon (lowering the party DPS even further). Eventually, threat changes and the mob starts running away from the new target to get outside of longbow minimum range. This is where you have to just hope that they aren't going to run into another pack, since you have no real way to control which way or how far they run. The new threat target then starts plinking with their ranged weapon, and the cycle repeats until the mob is dead or it runs into another pack and kills everyone.

Don't get me wrong, I love that ranged-exclusive mobs exist, but as it stands, there's no viable strategy for fighting them other than hope.
In order for them to be a part of the game that is enjoyable rather than a dice roll to see if the party dies, players need some means of controlling them. Either

A: Ranged threat generation tools for tanks, so that the tank can hold the target's attention while the party fights.
B: Ranged threat generation tools for strikers, AND a way for tanks to turn off their threat bonus (ie using a 2h weapon)
C: Root/stun/other CC that doesn't break on attack so that the mob can be held in place and killed.

Personally, I'd like to see a combination of all three, with B being the primary method, and A and C being options available to certain party compositions only.

 

[Blyte Plays]

Longbow monsters are a huge frustration, especially with the monsters running around corners and up ramps and ignoring LOS issues (a player would have), just tagging you every step of the way through wall and ceiling. You sit still and suffer the virtual wrath of undone, trying to mitigate the chaos, then when another party member wins threat, it's the same issue all over again. Que the Benny Hill theme. When you are in a dungeon scene, you think you will be able to leash them, because they will need LOS to attack you... nope, they just keep squirreling away from you until they are at max range.

Archers/Xbow monsters should all swap to melee weapons when engaged with melee. It is ridiculous watching one in melee combat with a group, wielding a bow. There are reasons why game systems apply huge disadvantages to anyone bringing a missile weapon into melee. It is unrealistic to expect to operate any of these firing systems, while you are eating maces to the face, and a shield is parked where you would like to be loading your missile.

It seems you have already conceded to remove them from 1-Chev categorically. Why don't you do the player base a favor and remove them all together?

All we are tryin to get you to do, is give the tank a tool to help mitigate the nightmare that is this NPC type. The moist towelette you gave them for a missile weapon, doesn't cut it.

Giving them a heavy x-bow, won't allow them to tank exclusively with a ranged weapon (they have a melee range blind spot). It will only let them banter with the long bow.

It will of course allow them to pull, achieving threat out the gate. The moist towelette they currently throw at monsters, instantly loses aggro on the tow backward. But what is the harm in that? Achieving threat is in their wheel house. If you don't want them to pull, why give them a wet noodle to sling at people?

getting more offtopic, but I can't stand this Kunai or the Katana looking sword personally. This game is entirely classic western medieval themed, with the exception of those two ridiculous additions. If you are going to have dual katanas, please give us a fedora and duster as well, for a full set bonus.

 

[Undone]

I would like to preface everything I am about to say with: This is my perspective from the design side of things. In no way am I discounting your feedback nor asking you to stop providing it good or bad. My goal is to stimulate productive conversation about this topic. Not silence you.

My main design issues with all of the proposed solutions thus far is that they all end up reducing the encounter with these ranged mobs to "the same". What I mean by that is -

• have the ranged mob switch to melee when they are in within melee range: this basically turns the fight into every other fight. The entire group is just going to swarm the NPC until they switch to melee and then it's the same as any other mob.
• give the tank a ranged weapon or some means of reliably maintaining ranged threat: again, this will result in a fight that is really no different than any other outside of the tank maintaining distance. In other words: the tank will simply do what they always do at range while the group continues to do the same thing that they always do.

In both of these cases there is very little "different" about the fight. No one has to change their behavior, their tactics, or their communication strategy. All you have to do is grab that initial aggro and everyone just goes on doing what they do in every other fight. These ranged mobs are meant to mix things up a bit and keep you on your toes.

I can't say that I have experienced every situation in the game - so I take my own example with a grain of salt. But as a dev team we test on a weekly basis and frequently encounter these ranged mobs which force us to change our tactics and do things a little differently in order to keep things under control. Yes, it adds a bit to the chaos, but their behavior has shown to be very predictable which allows us to anticipate what is going to happen next and adjust. A lot of the time our tank has to relinquish their "control" of that fight and either focus on other mobs, or stop using threat generating abilities so that they can continue to fight it from behind - and if things get a bit too hairy they can then use their threat generating abilities to try and reacquire aggro to save whoever is getting beat on.

 

[Undone]

When you are in a dungeon scene, you think you will be able to leash them, because they will need LOS to attack you... nope, they just keep squirreling away from you until they are at max range.

Are they still shooting through walls? If so this is a bug and needs to be fixed. They should be doing LOS checks before executing their attacks.

It seems you have already conceded to remove them from 1-Chev categorically. Why don't you do the player base a favor and remove them all together?

They were removed from the 1-chevron spawn tables because they are very solo unfriendly to defenders. In a group setting however, we are assuming that the group composition is not all defenders.

Giving them a heavy x-bow, won't allow them to tank exclusively with a ranged weapon (they have a melee range blind spot). It will only let them banter with the long bow.

I've talked about this a few times before - but being able to identify the base role of someone based on their weapon load out alone is something I view as being very important. This is one of the reasons that the weapons are segregated the way they are. This works for both players & humanoid NPCs.

It will of course allow them to pull, achieving threat out the gate. The moist towelette they currently throw at monsters, instantly loses aggro on the tow backward. But what is the harm in that? Achieving threat is in their wheel house. If you don't want them to pull, why give them a wet noodle to sling at people?

The kunai is nothing more than a tool to grab an NPC's attention. It was not designed to generate nor hold threat. And anyone can use it, so it's not something we "gave" to the defenders.

getting more offtopic, but I can't stand this Kunai or the Katana looking sword personally. This game is entirely classic western medieval themed, with the exception of those two ridiculous additions. If you are going to have dual katanas, please give us a fedora and duster as well, for a full set bonus.

Would you feel better if the Kunai were throwing axes? Or throwing daggers? Kunai was just a fancy name for throwing knife. And I think we only have maybe one katana visual? They're not a main part of our game - but I don't see the harm in a bit of visual variety.

 

[Blyte Plays]

Are they still shooting through walls? If so this is a bug and needs to be fixed. They should be doing LOS checks before executing their attacks.

They are, and in the oldest of places. New Haven Valley CV, exiles area, pretty deep. I smacked one and then the hijinx ensued.

Here's the deal, why do they even run? They dont play by our rules. They can fire in your face if you stay on top of them. Lack of distance doesnt stop them. Another thing, for challenging content strikers cant soak their damage or effectively burst down a 3-chev. It requires a group effort. If you have 2 tanks, then that's 2 who are all but out of the equation. The supports are just spamming heals at the striker trying to exchange fire with it and demonstrating that they aren't a tank. It's an all around problematic and frustrating monster.

Often times your groups aren't using discord, and good luck coordinating a take down of a 3-chev longbow in an already chaotic fight. Likely a wipe everytime. I've used discord, tactical communication, and concerted effort, and still gotten curb stomped by them due to growing healer threat or strikers threat. Making tanks feel worthless, and frustrating the group making a bag run.

I think it would be an improvement calling them throwing knives and axes and changing the icon. Kunai is something a juvenile ninja student throws for ninja exams. The eastern sword in a western game is an eye sore for me, but bonerific for a weeb. I can stomach it if I must.

 

[Blyte Plays]

and if it's the defenders only option for a ranged weapon, then yes that's what you gave them.. I don't see any other role using them... I might lol since I like to use 2 melee sets, but forget I said that....

 

[Undone]

Here's the deal, why do they even run? They dont play by our rules. They can fire in your face if you stay on top of them. Lack of distance doesnt stop them. Another thing, for challenging content strikers cant soak their damage or effectively burst down a 3-chev. It requires a group effort. If you have 2 tanks, then that's 2 who are all but out of the equation. The supports are just spamming heals at the striker trying to exchange fire with it and demonstrating that they aren't a tank. It's an all around problematic and frustrating monster.

They mostly play by the same rules. Occasionally they are allowed to bend or bypass them so that they can't exploited. What other solutions do we have to keep these encounters interesting but giving you more agency over how to handle the situation? I want to avoid the pitfalls of having the fight boil down to "the same" like I mentioned above but I'm open to ideas.

 

[CypherWulf]

My main design issues with all of the proposed solutions thus far is that they all end up reducing the encounter with these ranged mobs to "the same". What I mean by that is -

• have the ranged mob switch to melee when they are in within melee range: this basically turns the fight into every other fight. The entire group is just going to swarm the NPC until they switch to melee and then it's the same as any other mob.
• give the tank a ranged weapon or some means of reliably maintaining ranged threat: again, this will result in a fight that is really no different than any other outside of the tank maintaining distance. In other words: the tank will simply do what they always do at range while the group continues to do the same thing that they always do.

In both of these cases there is very little "different" about the fight. No one has to change their behavior, their tactics, or their communication strategy. All you have to do is grab that initial aggro and everyone just goes on doing what they do in every other fight. These ranged mobs are meant to mix things up a bit and keep you on your toes.

I presented another option, give strikers a skill that generates threat that can only be used with a ranged weapon, and make Defenders using 2H weapons not generate threat multiplier. This creates a different fight in that you have a striker doing the ranged tanking, and since they're not as squishy as supports, but a more squishy than tanks, and they don't generate as much threat as a dedicated tank, the healer needs to walk the line between keeping them standing and not drawing aggro themselves. Mixes things up, and could open design space for crossbows/bows with threat multiplier stats, and high-armor, low damage leather gear.

 

[Undone]

I presented another option, give strikers a skill that generates threat that can only be used with a ranged weapon, and make Defenders using 2H weapons not generate threat multiplier. This creates a different fight in that you have a striker doing the ranged tanking, and since they're not as squishy as supports, but a more squishy than tanks, and they don't generate as much threat as a dedicated tank, the healer needs to walk the line between keeping them standing and not drawing aggro themselves. Mixes things up, and could open design space for crossbows/bows with threat multiplier stats, and high-armor, low damage leather gear.

But isn't everything you suggested already true?

• "give strikers a skill that generates threat" --> most of their skills generate massive amounts of threat, which is why they have fading strike in the first place. So if strikers aren't using fading strike, then they are inherently generating lots of threat. Striker's attacking from the front bypass their -threat flanking bonus as well.
• "make defenders using 2H weapons not generate threat multiplier" --> 2H defender weapons don't have +threat so they already do this. Defender's attacking from the rear bypass their +threat flanking bonus as well.

Basically in order to already do what you suggest the striker needs to attack from the front and not use fading strike, while the defender attacks from the rear and not use any of their major threat generating abilities.

 

[CypherWulf]

In that case, then maybe an adjustment to the range modifier for threat when firing from the front would be all that is needed to make longbow mobs feel more controllable. Like I said, I don't want to see them eliminated, I think the idea of a mob that you have to handle differently is great variety, but not having a reliable tactic to do so is the issue for me.

 

[Undone]

In that case, then maybe an adjustment to the range modifier for threat when firing from the front would be all that is needed to make longbow mobs feel more controllable.

What do you mean by this?

 

[CypherWulf]

If a striker has the ability to generate more threat than the support, they can pull the target, and everyone else can fight from behind, as long as they're mindful of threat. The question is whether that is a possibility with the reduced aggro for range.

If firing from range and in front of the enemy, how much less threat would the striker generate compared to the other strikers attacking in melee from the back or sides? If it's the same or more, then striker ranged tanking can be a viable strategy for dealing with longbowmen.

 

[Blyte Plays]

I think ranged mobs who plunk, until engaged melee, are challenging enough. Often times they aren't noticed until they have done significant damage. They hang back in trees or up on ramps or ledges, making it difficult to get to them. But once you get to them, they should drop the bow, and pull out an appropriate melee weapon. You still must find who is making all that plunking noise and hustle to them.

Its 3 chev in particular, because you augmented their movement so much, that you need to drop combat stance to chase them, and they already backed away too fast some of the time, before your ability cast time is up, so you have to try it all over again and hope they dont weasel out of your weapon range before your cast time is up. RAGE ENSUES.

Have them behave like any player with a long bow must. Drop the bow and melee when they are caught up to.

This change would even let you program realistic encounters like a firing team of archers on a battle field. Which would be like wrangling weasels, in your current dynamic. With all of them trying to do kick flips while firing twin uzis.

 

[Undone]

because you augmented their movement so much

But their movement buff is only active on initial aggro? Once that wears off they should move at the same speed as you do no?

Have them behave like any player with a long bow must. Drop the bow and melee when they are caught up to.

I still think this trivializes the encounters by turning them into a regular old tank and spank. Working on some LoS fixes might help a lot in these situations so lets give that a go before we throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[CypherWulf]

I think we can all agree that the biggest concern is the unpredictability of longbowmen. Improving LOS checks is great for pulling the mob into a safe(r) fight location, but once you start fighting the mob, you still run the risk of the mob deciding to run off to Narnia after a nearby character takes threat. Taking a look at how other games have handled ranged mobs could be useful. Here's some examples of things I've seen, and how I think they would fit into EA. If anyone else has suggestions, please chime in.

• Ranged mob continues to fire their ranged weapon in melee range
  • Not a great option, and clearly not ideal
• Ranged mob switches to a melee weapon
  • Again, clearly not ideal, but at least more realistic.
• Ranged mob doesn't run, but only fires at ranged targets
  • Better, but it still raises the question of what happens when the entire party is inside of minimum range
• Ranged mob runs away, but can be stunned/rooted/etc to prevent running
  • This provides a tactical challenge to the party, but can potentially create situations where certain party compositions become mandatory.
  • Currently this isn’t an option as all current crowd control options break on hit.
• Ranged mob stays at range to its target and players have methods of holding aggro at range (even if those methods aren't on the normal tank classes)
  • From what I understand from what you’ve said, this is the closest option to what is already in game, as a designated ranged striker could build threat on the target, and the rest of the party could (so long as they take care in their threat generation) bring the mob down.
  • Some sort of extra threat generation skill for certain striker classes would assist in this, as well as a damage skill for defenders that doesn’t produce extra threat would allow them to do more than auto-attack and occasional strike.
  • By allowing the mob to be tanked at range, then (so long as everything goes right), the mob can be fought without significant fear of the mob running away into another pack.

I think I’ve been clear that I am an advocate for a combination of the last two, but all of them have worked in other games to various levels of success.

 

[Undone]

I think we can all agree that the biggest concern is the unpredictability of longbowmen.

Are they that unpredictable? They basically back up if you get too close to them. The direction in which they back up is typically opposite of their current target.

Either way, I've made some LoS and behavior adjustments that I'm hoping to push out this weekend so we can see how that goes. If all goes well then you can all use the environment to LoS them which will give you a bit more "control" over their movements.