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Embers Adrift

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Discussion on speed of progression

For me the game is painfully slow, from combat to XP gain.


  • XP SPEED - The XP speed is slow, but it feels even slower with how slow combat is.
  • ENJOYMENT - I'm struggling to keep playing the game and not uninstall it at this point.
  • END GAME - I don't think I will ever get there.

Here are things that I think will make the game better:

- add your character as an arrow on the map, the whole "you can't see yourself on the map, you gotta learn your surroundings, the blue planet is always North" crap is complete BS, it doesn't make the game more immersive or more interesting, just more frustrating.

- increase combat speed by at least 50%. Currently the game reminds me of Star Wars Galaxies before the CU and NGE updates, but somehow SWG combat feels faster, more fun and more enjoyable.

- limiting what weapons you can use based on your class is absolute POS. What prevents me from picking a 2H Sword if I'm a Defender? It would be more realistic to allow every class to use every weapon, except the ones not meant for them are used with reduced efficiency - hit chance, damage, etc.

- add a minimap to the game, as I said, the idea of making things difficult for no reason are not making the game more immersive. Even my most favorite RPG - The Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind does this better - you can see yourself on the map, you can see yourself on the minimap, NPCs give you directions where to go and it feels much better.

- make the game feel more like Vanilla WoW - like less punishing, not easier, just less punishing, like explaining mechanics better than some tooltip containing some boring wall of text, for example things like when you attack one mob and another of its kind that's close comes to fight you too or when you attack one bandit and all of a sudden 10+ bandits spawn from another dimension and gang up on you.

The sounds in the game feel so wrong - there is some weird echo, character jump sounds are too loud and come from the camera perspective rather than character perspective, the old jump sounds are even worse and more cringe. The balance of different sounds, like nature ambiance, combat, weapons hitting, animals attacking, moving on different terrain types are so unbalanced. Some are so loud, others are too quiet and there aren't enough sound sliders to fix it.

The camera movement feels wrong - if I move the camera to be above my character, it feels like the camera zooms in on my character too much, if I move the camera behind my character, it feels like it zooms out too much. I've never seen another game do that, it's so weird and annoying.

Everything in the game feels so inconsistent. You don't know the distance at which you get aggro - I walk up to some mobs that should be aggressive, they ignore me, then all of a sudden they remember they should be aggressive and attack me, other times they attack me instantly, you don't know for how long mobs chase you before they give up - sometimes they give up outright, sometimes they chase me throughout the whole map.

UI scaling is bad - some icons that are too big are downscaled, but there is no antialiasing so they look like some overpixelated then underpixelated mess of pixels that is impossible to tell what it is.

I feel like this game doesn't know what it wants to do. It tries to be old school, but it doesn't feel fun, I'd rather play Star Wars Galaxies or EverQuest 1 instead than this, they feel more fun.

And finally the game's very unoptimized and runs very poorly. If nothing is being done about it, people won't bother with the game at all. The game is making my computer so hot and loud and it can run games from 2023 with above 60 FPS. At this point the game is making my computer serve as an electric heater that's currently making my room hotter. Even Project Gorgon feels better optimized and that game has a horrible optimization.



If nothing is being done about the game, I guarantee it will die in less than a year.

I want to play and enjoy this game, but it feels like a complete waste of my time - it's slow, punishing, poorly optimized, even if I was some disabled, immobile retired old timer with lots of disposable outcome, I would still not play this game, I would choose something else over it instead.

Good games can be fun while also being difficult and challenging - if they are really good - it motivates you to learn and become better, but with Embers Adrift, the difficulty is not making the game any more fun, it's just frustrating, annoying and it's making me want to uninstall the game. I initially started playing Embers Adrift, because I saw it was difficult and slow, and thought if I dedicated enough time, effort and patience, as my character gets stronger, things will become faster and easier, it will give me a sense of satisfaction, but the game doesn't seem to be making things feel better of faster or a little easier at all. In comparison, my all-time favorite MMORPG - Vanilla WoW starts you with one ability and no gear, at around level 5, you already have learned a few more abilities, have better gear and things feel a bit faster and easier, and it just feels good, it fills you with a sense of excitement - you want to play more and progress more and see how your character gets stronger, but with Embers Adrift this is missing - the game feels so mundane and boring and neutered, even the world looks so boring and dull - it doesn't inspire you to want to explore it and see what it has to offer - it looks like a generic forest randomly generated with a tool rather than made by a person.
 
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Thank you very much for your feedback @Weilan - It has been read by the team.


Please NO! His thread is one big QQ post to trivialize things in the game and make them like lots of other drivel on the market. There are plenty of other games on the market that can fit his wants. Don't give in to those kinds of players that are here for all the wrong reasons. Realize this, if you give into requests like these, you will lose all of the other players that are here because they actually really like the game that your studio has and is creating. Stick with your core values and do not give into people that do not like certain aspects of a game, because they want it made easier. You will lose a lot of your base if you give into the vocal minority. Weilan sounds like he will quit sooner than later anyway.
 
Don't panic. SHS read all feedback, doesn't mean they'll make drastic changes to the game.

I've just seen it happen to so many games that I liked. What's ironic is that those that love to flame on the boards even quit anyway, if there complaints get met. Some people like to hop from game to game and complain, even when the game that they are complaining about wasn't meant for them in the first place. I truly can't stand people like that. It's like as if I went into a Chinese restaurant and yelled at them for not serving pizza.
 
Please NO! His thread is one big QQ post to trivialize things in the game and make them like lots of other drivel on the market. There are plenty of other games on the market that can fit his wants. Don't give in to those kinds of players that are here for all the wrong reasons. Realize this, if you give into requests like these, you will lose all of the other players that are here because they actually really like the game that your studio has and is creating. Stick with your core values and do not give into people that do not like certain aspects of a game, because they want it made easier. You will lose a lot of your base if you give into the vocal minority. Weilan sounds like he will quit sooner than later anyway.

Hey hey no stress here. I will re iterate what I have says in another thread and in many other place. (and thanks @Calkrow )
We are working on Embers Adrift for some reasons. We do not want to create ANY MMORPG, we want to create a specific MMORPG, a specific experience that we think is missing from today's market. We do have a clear vision on what we want to create: an immersive journey for players to adventure with friends in a medieval science-fiction (or low fantasy) settings with a original & unique Lore.
Then there is all the aspects that we can and want improve and polish. But we are not going to change our core intentions.

It is nice to read any sort of feedback though, as it allow us to refine our thoughs and our perspective on things. Sometimes, it is not that we need to change a feature, but we could communicate it differently to players.
So I still want to let a player know that we read their feedback (here @Weilan ) We are taking feedback seriously, even if we are not agreeing with the changes suggested.
 
I've just seen it happen to so many games that I liked. What's ironic is that those that love to flame on the boards even quit anyway, if there complaints get met. Some people like to hop from game to game and complain, even when the game that they are complaining about wasn't meant for them in the first place. I truly can't stand people like that. It's like as if I went into a Chinese restaurant and yelled at them for not serving pizza.
Indeed, it's been multiple decades now of watching first WoW then EQ (with EQ2) then tohers cave to the Monied Masses. Tbf tho they don't even know they're doing it, really, most of them. Just natural to express their preferences.
 
  • XP SPEED. Does it matter to you?
    Yes. Current XP rates are too low. Unless changes are made, I don't see this game making it long term. Despite me not feeling very engaged when grinding because I don't have a ton of abilities, I wouldn't grind for hundreds of hours to reach max level when there is a real possibility that the game dies out in a year or so. More players are leaving due to the frustration of how slow the xp rates are than sticking around because they like the pace of level progression.
  • ENJOYMENT How to make level progression a meaningful experience?
    Challenges are what I find most meaningful and memorable. I love MMORPGs because it's a blast problem solving with a group of adventurers, and allocating tasks to group/guild members that only they are qualified to perform due to their class/skills. Most of my MMORPGs memories were derived from wiping and struggling to complete a task, or crawling through a dungeon where my group was terrified before hitting each turn, but at the time same, we went on because the potential treasures we may earn for our efforts. In the context of Embers Adrift, the game should be sped up and the difficulty increased.
  • END GAME : Would getting to level 50 as quickly as possible be important? Are you more interested in endgame gameplay than 1-49 leveling?
    What's being overlooked here is achieving max level is important because it's usually only at that point, a character has access to all of their abilities and skills. It's difficult to really 'immerse' yourself into your character, when you are only able to use half your classes abilities for the first 25 - 50 hours of gameplay.

    In my humble opinion, Embers Adrift would be much better if the focus was grinding AAs/CMs at max level, rather than grinding furiously just to get to max level. There was a game called Everquest Online Adventures that got this grind formula JUST RIGHT. You chose a class at character creation, say, a warrior. Then, after level 30 or so, you had the option to grind for CMs (class mastery) points and further customize your class role with extra stats, abilities, and passives. For instance, a warrior could be a dual-wielding dps warrior (hero), a sword and shield wielding tank warrior (defender), or the tank archetype role (soldier). Each of these sub-classes had exclusive access to extra stats and abilities; and there were pre-req CMs one had to acquire in order to go certain sub-classes.
    For example, the pre-reqs for Hero were offensive CMs that resulted in damage increases; whereas for Defender it was all the defensive CMs that resulted in them being tankier. The difference in damage output between a Hero and a Defender was IMMENSE. It really made your character feel custom and unique, because even two Defenders wouldn't have the same set of CMs. Defender A may be stacking AC CMs, whereas Defender B may be stacking resist CMs; and there simply wasn't a Defender C who had both AC and Resist CMs. The CM max count was 1500, however, it was exceedingly difficult to actually obtain 1500 CMs, as they became harder to earn the higher your CM count was. I believe only a few people ever acquired the max CMs.

    If EA had a system like this, oooof, it would sync perfectly with the core game that's already been made. If the devs added one additional class role, like archer, summoner, or mage, with 3 classes within that role, then there could be a total of 4 roles, 12 classes, and 30+ sub-classes through the CM system. For instance,
    the pipeline for striker could be: > brigand > assassin (back stab, DD DPS) OR rogue (bleeds, poisons, DOTs dps) OR thief (pickpocket, cc, utility/control dps)'
 
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It would be nice if the subclasses could choose another specialty at say Level 30.

So could be Striker -> Warden -> Ranger
etc etc

But I think good things are coming and we just need to enjoy this day and look forward to what is coming.
 
Here are things that I think will make the game better:

- add your character as an arrow on the map, the whole "you can't see yourself on the map, you gotta learn your surroundings, the blue planet is always North" crap is complete BS, it doesn't make the game more immersive or more interesting, just more frustrating.
Keep in mind that these things won't make the game "better," they'll make it better fit your preferences. Crucial difference, especially for us, who typically prefer the feeling of being alone and lost in a huge world, and who don't get frustrated by such things, who DO get more immersed and find it more interesting to have the world as your "enemy," as well as the creatures.
- increase combat speed by at least 50%. Currently the game reminds me of Star Wars Galaxies before the CU and NGE updates, but somehow SWG combat feels faster, more fun and more enjoyable.
So this is basically Embers's defining feature; there are MMOs with heavy consequence (permadeath and full loot MMOs), forced grouping (all MMO raiding), etc. But Embers distinguishes itself by modeling its combat after the Olde School MMORPGs, the EQ/FFXI/Camelot model which is effectly directly translating RPG combat into a live action environment. This is opposed to creating an MMOARPG, which is changing the RPG combat model to an action based model, while retaining other RPG elements.

Effectively 99% of MMOs are ARPGs, so you're spoiled for choice. Please don't take our tiny niche here as well, we're here precisely because we DON'T enjoy such action combat! :)
- limiting what weapons you can use based on your class is absolute POS. What prevents me from picking a 2H Sword if I'm a Defender? It would be more realistic to allow every class to use every weapon, except the ones not meant for them are used with reduced efficiency - hit chance, damage, etc.
This seems like an extremely minor issue. What's the difference between using a weapon at 10% efficiency and not using it? I suppose the look of the thing? I just haven't ever had any issue with locked classes; gender, race, or otherwise.
- add a minimap to the game, as I said, the idea of making things difficult for no reason are not making the game more immersive. Even my most favorite RPG - The Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind does this better - you can see yourself on the map, you can see yourself on the minimap, NPCs give you directions where to go and it feels much better.
No, it doesn't feel much better for us. I rather LIKE having to pay attention to where towns and caves are.
- make the game feel more like Vanilla WoW - like less punishing, not easier, just less punishing, like explaining mechanics better than some tooltip containing some boring wall of text, for example things like when you attack one mob and another of its kind that's close comes to fight you too or when you attack one bandit and all of a sudden 10+ bandits spawn from another dimension and gang up on you.
Here I can agree, somewhat. I also loved and poured many thousands of hours into Classic and BC WoW. However, I've not encountered any mechanics that were at all mysterious (that also mattered), so information exposure isn't really relevant to me. But I like to play huge learning curve games like EVE and econ sims, so I tend to enjoy working it out.
If nothing is being done about the game, I guarantee it will die in less than a year.

I want to play and enjoy this game, but it feels like a complete waste of my time - it's slow, punishing, poorly optimized, even if I was some disabled, immobile retired old timer with lots of disposable outcome, I would still not play this game, I would choose something else over it instead.
And this is perfectly fine; Embers is an indie effort, which are naturally going to be slightly more iffy on some things, most obviously performance. For many of us though, it's WAY better than we expected to get in terms of covering our needs* while we wait for (theoretical, maybe) AAA level MMORPGs again. One day. Supposedly.

*Our needs *specifically* being a slow, punishing RPG.

Whether it will fail as an MMO, perhaps. We (MMORPGs) were always niche except when we were literally the only thing available (dial-up MMO days), and that may simply not be enough to sustain an MMORPG these days. I'd disagree here, though, I think it can be done. $10 a month is pretty solid.
I initially started playing Embers Adrift, because I saw it was difficult and slow, and thought if I dedicated enough time, effort and patience, as my character gets stronger, things will become faster and easier, it will give me a sense of satisfaction, but the game doesn't seem to be making things feel better of faster or a little easier at all. In comparison, my all-time favorite MMORPG - Vanilla WoW starts you with one ability and no gear, at around level 5, you already have learned a few more abilities, have better gear and things feel a bit faster and easier, and it just feels good, it fills you with a sense of excitement - you want to play more and progress more and see how your character gets stronger, but with Embers Adrift this is missing - the game feels so mundane and boring and neutered, even the world looks so boring and dull - it doesn't inspire you to want to explore it and see what it has to offer - it looks like a generic forest randomly generated with a tool rather than made by a person.
So while the pace of ability acquisition is indeed slower, remember that you can blast up the ranks with grouping, even very early on. I choose not to but it's very doable. And for me the world itself provided the impetus to progress, new abilities can be delayed a bit if I'm exploring a new forest, some dangerous hills.

I would point out, though, that WoW doesn't get "faster and easier" as it progresses; most games don't. Whether through level scaling or quest progression, you're typically pitted against enemies that provide challenge. When you start blasting down enemies without effort, when HP and MP no longer matter, that's usually meant as a sign that it's time to move to the next zone/quest. So the Plainstriders and Cougars and those dog enemies I can't recall the name of took almost exaclty as long to kill, and took as much of my HP and MP, as did the Yetis and Wolves and Hydras in Winterspring, even though my power had dramatically increased.

Your feeling of strength comes from killing more and more powerful and dangerous enemies, not from killing enemies faster or easier.

And the aesthetic of the forested hills and natural terrain look is certainly something I understand, I happen to absolutely love it, especially compared with say, WoW's cartoonish versions (although Classic had some awesome zones). Don't underestimate the strength of today's forest construction tools ;)

Good luck searching for your next MMO.
 
Me waiting for a AAA MMO to be anywhere as good as Embers Adrift.

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Some of you may get the reference, maybe.
 
Hey guys, what are your thoughts on how fast XP progression currently is? Should it be faster / slower? Does gaining each level feel worth it? Is getting to level 50 as quickly as possible important to you?

((The creators of the other thread are being extremely toxic and hostile, and are gatekeeping...so I made this thread where everyone is welcome to speak from any perspective .))

LET’S SPEAK

  • XP SPEED. Does it matter to you?
  • ENJOYMENT How to make level progrssion a meaningful experience?
  • END GAME : Would getting to level 50 as quickly as possible be important? Are you more interested in endgame gameplay than 1-49 leveling?

Thank you for your participation
I think there is a misconception about levelling speed and how players view progression in general in classic MMO's and tabletop RPG's. The misconception being that anything other than the progression speed in Embers is somehow modern when Embers is far slower even than classic Everquest. What would be considered a hell level in EQ is par for the course for much of the levelling experience in Ember's. Why there is this misconception I am not sure but we can assume that in some part it is a very small minority of players wanting to gatekeep away a certain type of player they don't like.

This goes for tabletop games as well. Reasonable progression was never a dirty term. Even playing 1st and 2nd Edition D&D way back the groups I played in would often talk about and look forward to new levels and items. There would often be conversations outside of game about the psychology of progression and how DM's balanced that. Not wanting the players to feel as though progression was taking to long while still feeling meaningful. That players had a threshold where they would just stray and lose interest if it went beyond that.

I think Embers is a lesson in going beyond that threshold in it's current form and the few times I have logged in post sub changes to see only mid to high teens of players logged in is a reflection in part of that.
 
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