QA April 2023

[Eryola]

We have no current plans to remove diminishing returns on crowd control abilities. The reason they exist is precisely so you cannot perpetually CC an NPC and buy your group as much time as required. While yes, many games have diminishing returns for PvP balancing, many also impose diminishing returns for PvE as well for the above mentioned reason (see WoW as one such example). EQ did not have diminishing returns to my knowledge; but they also had random breaks in CC whereas we do not.

WoW did NOT have dimishing returns on PvE CC. You could sheep a mob forever for example. The dimishing returns you talk about are against STUNS, which work differently than in Embers... you can attack and dmg a WoW mob while stunned and have it not break. The dimishing returns are in there, so you can't chain-stun a mob to make it completely helpless while being killed.
EverQuest did also not have dimishing returns on the most important CCs, the mezzes... how do I know? I happen to have played an Enchanter that had to continously mezz 2 (of 6 mezzable) RAID BOSSES for like TWO HOURS in Plane of EarthB (Rathe Council fight). Roots and charms could break early, yup, but mezzes were fixed-duration (54sec base without AAs), NO RANDOM BREAKS and 2 of them were even unresistable (Rapture and Ancient: Eternal Rapture). Additionally stuns were fixed duration too... what did we do? Get 2 enchs, 1 cleric and 3 mag/wiz into a group, pull half the zone and AoE them while both enchs kept everything permastunned... fun times.

Anyway... I have another question: Do the mobs completely stop checking for aggro while CCed or do they just no longer do their "do I still see my opponent"-thingy? Because if a mob that is stunned can essentially not notice what is happening around them, this might actually fix a lot of problems with healer aggro. (i.e.: 4 mobs inc, 3 stunned, 1 killed while using Triage a few times, healer = tank for remaining mobs)

And for clarification: I am not arguing against the CC-Aggro fix. CC should not be a mem-blur, I 100% agree on that. I just want to get rid of the damn dimishing returns that kinda make no sense in this game. Sta cost and especially cooldown of CC abilities, combined with random resists and reduced duration on Ashen and nameds are enough to balance CC already, without the extra step of DR. Best example for this is the Brigand 10sec stun... without DR it would be a very useful ability that would still drain the brigands sta and essentially remove his dps from the fight while he is busy CCing, but as it currently is... it is a crap ability not even worth the slot. Getting the mobs immune to the normal stun is worse than not using the new ability at all.

 

[Korraz]

WoW did NOT have dimishing returns on PvE CC. You could sheep a mob forever for example. The dimishing returns you talk about are against STUNS, which work differently than in Embers... you can attack and dmg a WoW mob while stunned and have it not break. The dimishing returns are in there, so you can't chain-stun a mob to make it completely helpless while being killed.
EverQuest did also not have dimishing returns on the most important CCs, the mezzes... how do I know? I happen to have played an Enchanter that had to continously mezz 2 (of 6 mezzable) RAID BOSSES for like TWO HOURS in Plane of EarthB (Rathe Council fight). Roots and charms could break early, yup, but mezzes were fixed-duration (54sec base without AAs), NO RANDOM BREAKS and 2 of them were even unresistable (Rapture and Ancient: Eternal Rapture). Additionally stuns were fixed duration too... what did we do? Get 2 enchs, 1 cleric and 3 mag/wiz into a group, pull half the zone and AoE them while both enchs kept everything permastunned... fun times.

Anyway... I have another question: Do the mobs completely stop checking for aggro while CCed or do they just no longer do their "do I still see my opponent"-thingy? Because if a mob that is stunned can essentially not notice what is happening around them, this might actually fix a lot of problems with healer aggro. (i.e.: 4 mobs inc, 3 stunned, 1 killed while using Triage a few times, healer = tank for remaining mobs)

And for clarification: I am not arguing against the CC-Aggro fix. CC should not be a mem-blur, I 100% agree on that. I just want to get rid of the damn dimishing returns that kinda make no sense in this game. Sta cost and especially cooldown of CC abilities, combined with random resists and reduced duration on Ashen and nameds are enough to balance CC already, without the extra step of DR. Best example for this is the Brigand 10sec stun... without DR it would be a very useful ability that would still drain the brigands sta and essentially remove his dps from the fight while he is busy CCing, but as it currently is... it is a crap ability not even worth the slot. Getting the mobs immune to the normal stun is worse than not using the new ability at all.

I second this entire post.
Keeping diminishing returns for PvE mobs after these new CC changes is completely asinine; why do you guys insist upon pushing players away from the game? Listen to some feedback please.

 

[Tulach]

You are making assertions about how the game works that are just not true so I am trying to get a better understanding of what you are describing while at the same time explaining why the things you are asserting cannot be true. For example: the only time a resist is every calculated or considered is when a debuff/CC is applied to a target. Outside of that there is no other time or place in which the server even knows what a resist is.

Yes I would love detailed feedback - which is precisely why I asked questions such as "How are you determining this?". You can upload videos to YouTube and keep them unlisted and then send us the link. And let me clarify: I am not disputing your observations, I am disputing your explanations for why you observed said thing. If there are bugs we absolutely want to know about them. The most useful information you can give us is how to reproduce the issue along with describing the observed behavior via text/video/etc.

I am simply trying to give as detailed feedback as possible. I am not asserting anything as only you would have the information to determine if something is working according to plan or not. My observations are strictly that. When mobs swap aggro targets they will sometimes break early. It is during that swap that it was observed to be the case. It is more prevalent on mobs that have higher resists or are affected by GEL. Being affected by GEL does not seem to benefit CC abilities to the level it is supposed to.

If you use CC on a group of mobs according to your above statement they should all break at the same time, in accordance with a full cycle time. I can pass along the observation that that is not what is being observed.

^^^ I agree with both of the posters above

 

[Undone]

WoW did NOT have dimishing returns on PvE CC. You could sheep a mob forever for example. The dimishing returns you talk about are against STUNS, which work differently than in Embers... you can attack and dmg a WoW mob while stunned and have it not break. The dimishing returns are in there, so you can't chain-stun a mob to make it completely helpless while being killed.

Thanks for the clarification here. That WoW article I linked is not entirely clear if the diminishing returns extends to the other categories in PvE and it has been a while since I've played myself. WoW was never really leaned too hard into CC like EQ did though outside of PvP.

EverQuest did also not have dimishing returns on the most important CCs, the mezzes... how do I know? I happen to have played an Enchanter that had to continously mezz 2 (of 6 mezzable) RAID BOSSES for like TWO HOURS in Plane of EarthB (Rathe Council fight). Roots and charms could break early, yup, but mezzes were fixed-duration (54sec base without AAs), NO RANDOM BREAKS and 2 of them were even unresistable (Rapture and Ancient: Eternal Rapture). Additionally stuns were fixed duration too... what did we do? Get 2 enchs, 1 cleric and 3 mag/wiz into a group, pull half the zone and AoE them while both enchs kept everything permastunned... fun times.

Just to make sure you don't think I'm crazy - my original statement said that EQ did NOT have diminishing returns :O

Anyway... I have another question: Do the mobs completely stop checking for aggro while CCed or do they just no longer do their "do I still see my opponent"-thingy? Because if a mob that is stunned can essentially not notice what is happening around them, this might actually fix a lot of problems with healer aggro. (i.e.: 4 mobs inc, 3 stunned, 1 killed while using Triage a few times, healer = tank for remaining mobs)

Mobs have always continued to "process" targets while under CC - but disallowing the addition of threat while stunned might be interesting - but that might also be bad for tanks as they would no longer be able to provoke. But that could also be interesting...

And for clarification: I am not arguing against the CC-Aggro fix. CC should not be a mem-blur, I 100% agree on that. I just want to get rid of the damn dimishing returns that kinda make no sense in this game. Sta cost and especially cooldown of CC abilities, combined with random resists and reduced duration on Ashen and nameds are enough to balance CC already, without the extra step of DR. Best example for this is the Brigand 10sec stun... without DR it would be a very useful ability that would still drain the brigands sta and essentially remove his dps from the fight while he is busy CCing, but as it currently is... it is a crap ability not even worth the slot. Getting the mobs immune to the normal stun is worse than not using the new ability at all.

These are certainly things we can consider. But making these sorts of changes requires a decent amount of time to consider all of the untended consequences to make sure things are balanced appropriately. We'll do some noodling in the next few weeks and see what we can do to make things more interesting. It could be as simple as adjusting the DR timer for different CCs.

Keeping diminishing returns for PvE mobs after these new CC changes is completely asinine; why do you guys insist upon pushing players away from the game?

The only thing changing is your ability to easily reset mobs via CC. Does this mean that you are ok with diminishing returns on CC if you can use it for that purpose? Because the core intended functionality is not changing in the slightest.

Listen to some feedback please.

If we didn't listen to feedback I wouldn't be here engaging in conversation with you all. It would be much easier to just make a change and ignore everyone's concerns but here I am first thing in the morning replying to your comments. I'm more than happy to consider removing diminishing returns for some CC but it would not be this month. There are a lot of unforeseen consequences of doing that and they all need to be carefully considered and balanced.

If you use CC on a group of mobs according to your above statement they should all break at the same time, in accordance with a full cycle time. I can pass along the observation that that is not what is being observed.

Are all of these mobs the same mob type? Are they the same level? Different types of mobs could have different levels of base resist. And if the mobs are of different level and any of them are yellow then you are going to get some resisting and some not. These types of examples are great but we need more details to really understand what is going on.

 

[Undone]

If you use CC on a group of mobs according to your above statement they should all break at the same time, in accordance with a full cycle time. I can pass along the observation that that is not what is being observed.

I just did some testing with Marshal's Halt and Brigand's Flash Powder.

Test Case A:
- spawn 3x equal level exiles (white)
- CC all spawns
- all CC effects expired at exactly the same time

Test Case B:
- spawn an equal level exile, +1 yellow exile, and a +2 yellow exile
- CC all spawns
- CC expired from the +2 yellow first
- CC expired from the +1 yellow second
- CC expired from the equal level last

This is precisely what I would expect to happen. More details are needed for the types and levels of mobs for your example.

 

[Korraz]

Thanks for the clarification here. That WoW article I linked is not entirely clear if the diminishing returns extends to the other categories in PvE and it has been a while since I've played myself. WoW was never really leaned too hard into CC like EQ did though outside of PvP.


Just to make sure you don't think I'm crazy - my original statement said that EQ did NOT have diminishing returns :O


Mobs have always continued to "process" targets while under CC - but disallowing the addition of threat while stunned might be interesting - but that might also be bad for tanks as they would no longer be able to provoke. But that could also be interesting...


These are certainly things we can consider. But making these sorts of changes requires a decent amount of time to consider all of the untended consequences to make sure things are balanced appropriately. We'll do some noodling in the next few weeks and see what we can do to make things more interesting. It could be as simple as adjusting the DR timer for different CCs.


The only thing changing is your ability to easily reset mobs via CC. Does this mean that you are ok with diminishing returns on CC if you can use it for that purpose? Because the core intended functionality is not changing in the slightest.


If we didn't listen to feedback I wouldn't be here engaging in conversation with you all. It would be much easier to just make a change and ignore everyone's concerns but here I am first thing in the morning replying to your comments. I'm more than happy to consider removing diminishing returns for some CC but it would not be this month. There are a lot of unforeseen consequences of doing that and they all need to be carefully considered and balanced.


Are all of these mobs the same mob type? Are they the same level? Different types of mobs could have different levels of base resist. And if the mobs are of different level and any of them are yellow then you are going to get some resisting and some not. These types of examples are great but we need more details to really understand what is going on.

Asking rhetorical snarky questions and complaining about having to do so first thing in the morning is not the same as listening to feedback.
But go ahead man do you keep up the ultra defensive negative attitude, it's not my game I just play it.

 

[Undone]

Asking rhetorical snarky questions and complaining about having to do so first thing in the morning is not the same as listening to feedback.
But go ahead man do you keep up the ultra defensive negative attitude, it's not my game I just play it.

I do not feel as though I was complaining, my apologies if it came off that way. I was just trying to say that I'm here engaging with the community because I care.

 

[Tulach]

I just did some testing with Marshal's Halt and Brigand's Flash Powder.

Test Case A:
- spawn 3x equal level exiles (white)
- CC all spawns
- all CC effects expired at exactly the same time

Test Case B:
- spawn an equal level exile, +1 yellow exile, and a +2 yellow exile
- CC all spawns
- CC expired from the +2 yellow first
- CC expired from the +1 yellow second
- CC expired from the equal level last

This is precisely what I would expect to happen. More details are needed for the types and levels of mobs for your example.

So just some feedback on this. I will put together some video for review in the mean time.

If we break down your example a bit using halt on a marshal. Lets talk about kill priority for a group. Most groups would choose to kill the weakest mob first when engaged with multiple mobs at the same time given that TTK is less. Giving further priority to ranged mobs that are continuing to attack while rooted.

Using that logic case if we are killing the mob with the longest time to break first and that one that breaks first last, it essentially makes the DR on CC even worse off. This means that your DR stack on CC mobs goes with the mob with the lowest timer to start with. Considering Halt is an AOE ability with a longish reuse timer, you are forced whether the mob is free or not to hit all of the mobs in the camp at the same time with another DR stack. Brigands have a few more options with different abilities to single target sleep, however they are quite a bit more squishy as well.

I would like to see a combat attack speed -haste debuff for marshal with similar range to halt. That would make in camp rooted mobs less dangerous and might change kill priority.

 

[Tulach]

Mobs have always continued to "process" targets while under CC - but disallowing the addition of threat while stunned might be interesting - but that might also be bad for tanks as they would no longer be able to provoke. But that could also be interesting...

How would this be bad for tanks? Provoke is what an 8 second timer or so? It doesnt provide that massive of an amount of threat and there is no way to out aggro the healer with multiple mobs on CC currently due to cooldown if nothing else, never mind taking into consideration the huge stamina cost even if it were possible.

As a community I don't think anyone is opposed to more difficult encounters, and/or higher player skill cap. However with that said, it is important to give us the tools to make encounters possible at least. Those of us that play a bunch will find a way regardless to eat content as fast as you can make it and will find a way no matter what. With that said content that is not fun, or impossible for those more casual might result in shoving people away. When healers are forced to tank in groups because there are not tools to control them from getting beat on, healers quit the game. For more casual groups that means others don't form groups. For some of us more dedicated it means we are forced to box a healer that can also tank.

 

[Eryola]

I just did some testing with Marshal's Halt and Brigand's Flash Powder.

Test Case A:
- spawn 3x equal level exiles (white)
- CC all spawns
- all CC effects expired at exactly the same time

Test Case B:
- spawn an equal level exile, +1 yellow exile, and a +2 yellow exile
- CC all spawns
- CC expired from the +2 yellow first
- CC expired from the +1 yellow second
- CC expired from the equal level last

This is precisely what I would expect to happen. More details are needed for the types and levels of mobs for your example.

Other things to factor in here in addition to level are, what we noticed so far: Ashen tend to break A LOT earlier. Nameds (including Forsaken) seem to break earlier and there can be of course random misses, partial or full resists on CC. But it doesn't appear to be random -breaks-... it just starts with a lower duration already (you can check the debuff for exact timing).

 

[BamRenatus]

Caught up on all the CC discussion so i'll give my 2 cents on a few topics.

The Changes to CC
While the current implementation did kinda trivialize some encounters, there have still been many instances where CC hasn't been able to save me and i've had to accept death. I never really considered it to be a bug, it just made sense to me that if I slept something and ran out of line of site, it wouldn't be able to see where i went so i consider that realism. Considering the population and that there are levels of the game where making conventional parties isn't always an option, I really dont see changing this now a priority. But if it has to be this way, i'll just adjust to the new difficulty without any tears. Mobs will still all leash eventually anyways.

The idea of any job using CC to bind/stun mobs and bring one back to the group while creative, doesn't really provide any kind of advantage to the group aside from fighting one mob at a time just really slowing things down. For how little EXP you get per mob, things like lull and/or over-engineering pulls just to play it super safe eats up peoples time for little gain. Just pull a bunch, and coordinate CC where you're fighting. Typically, if you pull 1 mob and there is 3 or more that can link, you'll get 1 additional mob, and up to 2 more might investigate which results in only getting 2 anyways. The only exception to this would be EVs and tighter dungeons where I expect more of a challenge anyways.

Diminishing Returns
Removing DR would trivialize a lot making CC really OP. I didn't play much EQ, but from what i did play I do know that Enchanter was stupid OP and Mez was stupid and boring. I played a SHD to 55 before i got bored of 8 mobs lining up for me to tank 1 at a time with no real danger of anything going wrong if everything was level appropriate.

Embers has things right IMO. Multiple types of CC that don't share DR is a good balance and if you coordinate them you could even avoid DR altogether Playing with multiple CCers in the group also adds a layer of complexity and is easy to step on eachothers toes if you don't coordinate. 2 Flash powders being used at the same time for example means you only get 20 seconds out of CC for a group of mobs which could be deadly having only 1 short stun left before DR cap is hit and you run out of CC options for a while. It adds some difficulty to the game making decisions meaningful, and rewards coordinating with your group. I haven't really had a chance to try it because i havent been in a long enough group fight ever, but say for example If you weave Halt and Flash powder to keep mobs CC'd, by the time you have used each of them 3 times (Halt > Flash Powder> Halt > Flash powder > ...) over the course of the group fight, the mobs will either be dead, or DR timer reset.

---

Overall, I think the fact that a lot of feedback stems from not really having the luxury of playing in full well-rounded groups due to the population, and changes like this making things even more difficult for low-man, or unconventional party setups shouldn't really be a priority, and should be added as polish once the game is more complete, with a healthier population. We have been seeing quite a bit of these less desirable changes lately and it does take its toll on people and doesn't help people with enjoyment and selling the game to people. Just keep pouring out the great content and quality of life updates, and put stuff like this on the back burner for a while, yeah?

 

[Korraz]

Overall, I think the fact that a lot of feedback stems from not really having the luxury of playing in full well-rounded groups due to the population, and changes like this making things even more difficult for low-man, or unconventional party setups shouldn't really be a priority, and should be added as polish once the game is more complete, with a healthier population. We have been seeing quite a bit of these less desirable changes lately and it does take its toll on people and doesn't help people with enjoyment and selling the game to people. Just keep pouring out the great content and quality of life updates, and put stuff like this on the back burner for a while, yeah?

This a thousand times over, couldn't have said it better myself.
Focus on producing actual content instead of punishing the very small amount of us still playing the game by nerfing/changing things constantly and creating more pain points for players.
I get it, this wasn't the intent of CC mechanics but this is the kind of thing that needs to be tested and changed in BETA not MONTHS after "launch"

 

[Zorvan]

Is this game real it is verifiable that's what I'm worried about

I'd say the game being available to play would indicate yes, it's real.