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Why I'm against damage dealers (DPS) role - Debuffer might be better

innosa

Member
I think damage dealers just brings in a very basic unoriginal and team breaking role into every party. They always ruin the dynamic of the tank and healer just trying to keep the party together.

I would suggest all roles do about the same amount of damage. Tank and healer will do similar levels of damage, only different based on the gear level. But then if there isn't a damage dealer what could the third one be? I would say the debuffer role. So the idea is kind of from the Burglar from Lord of the Rings Online. Every class seemed to have a very different role not from the traditional Holy Trinity. Debuffer means the character reduces the defenses and offenses of the enemy so others will inflict greater damage upon the enemy.

Damage dealer does not contribute to helping the group or cooperating with it, the debuffer on the other hand put debuffs on the enemy that will help ramp up the damage over the entire party. Different from the support/healer role that buffs the party and heals them, the debuffer will mark the target and reduce their effectiveness in combat. Maybe even reducing the damage the enemy deals to help facilitate and help out the healer and tank.

I also am inspired by DC Universe Online's first approach on roles (though now they changed it to my chagrin). They had tank, support and crowd controller. Damage dealer was not a role at one point but there was a way to go that route just that the devs did not support that role as much.

The debuffer would do as much damage as the tank or healer so there's no damage meters nonsense. The thing about debuffs is that it doesn't put that into the damage meters as part of your contribution. It increases all the party's damage though you don't get credit for it but if there was no damage dealers and just debuffers you would become a welcomed addition to the party.

Heck maybe make debuffs stack ONLY if you had more than one debuffer so every debuffer can apply their debuff on the enemy.
 

Dalton

Well-Known Member
The DPS in this game are not just DPS and thats it, they havre a lot of CC and buffs/debuffs, kiting and other things. I would not say any of the classes just do damage and nothing else. I would suggest giving some of the gameplay videos of higher lvl content a watch as it will better showcase those dps type classes.
 

innosa

Member
The DPS in this game are not just DPS and thats it, they havre a lot of CC and buffs/debuffs, kiting and other things. I would not say any of the classes just do damage and nothing else. I would suggest giving some of the gameplay videos of higher lvl content a watch as it will better showcase those dps type classes.
The idea of DPS is still there if what you say is true and DPS is masked in this way then that's great.
 

Dalton

Well-Known Member
The idea of DPS is still there if what you say is true and DPS is masked in this way then that's great.
You always need a role that is main damage dealer, otherwise it is a slow tank and heal slogfest. I play a Support that also does decent damage while healing and buffing people.
 

innosa

Member
You always need a role that is main damage dealer, otherwise it is a slow tank and heal slogfest. I play a Support that also does decent damage while healing and buffing people.
But it wouldn't be slow and long because the debuffs would allow everyone to deliver the damage to end the fight. If you put a debuff to the enemy that makes them take 10% more damage everyone in the party will deal 10% more damage to it. If there's 5 people in the party they would do 50% more damage.
There's massive problems in other games. DPS won't buff others or debuff enemies because they would rather spend their resources climbing up the damage meters and make sure others don't benefit off their buffs or debuffs. Creates a very anti-social gameplay of annul of the community and cooperative teamplay.
 

Dalton

Well-Known Member
But it wouldn't be slow and long because the debuffs would allow everyone to deliver the damage to end the fight. If you put a debuff to the enemy that makes them take 10% more damage everyone in the party will deal 10% more damage to it. If there's 5 people in the party they would do 50% more damage.
There's massive problems in other games. DPS won't buff others or debuff enemies because they would rather spend their resources climbing up the damage meters and make sure others don't benefit off their buffs or debuffs. Creates a very anti-social gameplay of annul of the community and cooperative teamplay.
Each class in game has a purpose and is helpful to the group, all have buffs and debuffs on some degree and work tgoether quite well. There is no damage meter in game so no worry there. If you are looking to be a damage dealer that helps the group then there is that for you.
 

innosa

Member
Each class in game has a purpose and is helpful to the group, all have buffs and debuffs on some degree and work tgoether quite well. There is no damage meter in game so no worry there. If you are looking to be a damage dealer that helps the group then there is that for you.
The thing is people do eventually make mods for damage score keeping. This has happened in games that didn't have addons.
 

Dalton

Well-Known Member
The thing is people do eventually make mods for damage score keeping. This has happened in games that didn't have addons.
Combat is slow enough and visable be all you could do it without a dmg meter lol. If anyone ever complains about my “dps” I would just never group with them again. Dont got time for that haha.
 

innosa

Member
Combat is slow enough and visable be all you could do it without a dmg meter lol. If anyone ever complains about my “dps” I would just never group with them again. Dont got time for that haha.
The thing is the damage score thing always break any quality group because people want to be number 1. Some people won't tell you.

I remember multiple instances of this.
1. A guy had a weapon as good as what would drop or even less good but because some other guy in the party showed I was doing more damage he said he was going to need on it and told me sorry.
2. Show the damage meters and people that were playing as a team suddenly go off their hinges pulling more and making it really hard for the tanks and healers for no reason.
3. DPS will attack the targets that are highest in health once they're low in health they swap to other high health targets knowing that they can make higher scores faster this way.
4. DPS refuses to put debuffs or buff others so they can have an advantage in the damage over others. But demand others keep buffs on them.
5. They don't group with people they think do less damage but of course never tell them directly.
 

Godsa

Member
But it wouldn't be slow and long because the debuffs would allow everyone to deliver the damage to end the fight. If you put a debuff to the enemy that makes them take 10% more damage everyone in the party will deal 10% more damage to it. If there's 5 people in the party they would do 50% more damage.
There's massive problems in other games. DPS won't buff others or debuff enemies because they would rather spend their resources climbing up the damage meters and make sure others don't benefit off their buffs or debuffs. Creates a very anti-social gameplay of annul of the community and cooperative teamplay.
Your delirious - DPS is DPS - end of story - Tank and healer need to adapt and do their jobs - if someone is pulling mobs and not listening to the group or not giving the tank enough time to get agro...kick them

But we don't make dps same for everyone tank , healer etc - and we def don't do your change because life is a little harder - find a viable solution in the real world

DPS COME TO DPS...take that away - you already broke the game

Look at EVERYTHING not just YOUR SIDE OF THINGS
 

MrDDT

Active Member
I think damage dealers just brings in a very basic unoriginal and team breaking role into every party. They always ruin the dynamic of the tank and healer just trying to keep the party together.

I would suggest all roles do about the same amount of damage. Tank and healer will do similar levels of damage, only different based on the gear level. But then if there isn't a damage dealer what could the third one be? I would say the debuffer role. So the idea is kind of from the Burglar from Lord of the Rings Online. Every class seemed to have a very different role not from the traditional Holy Trinity. Debuffer means the character reduces the defenses and offenses of the enemy so others will inflict greater damage upon the enemy.

Damage dealer does not contribute to helping the group or cooperating with it, the debuffer on the other hand put debuffs on the enemy that will help ramp up the damage over the entire party. Different from the support/healer role that buffs the party and heals them, the debuffer will mark the target and reduce their effectiveness in combat. Maybe even reducing the damage the enemy deals to help facilitate and help out the healer and tank.

I also am inspired by DC Universe Online's first approach on roles (though now they changed it to my chagrin). They had tank, support and crowd controller. Damage dealer was not a role at one point but there was a way to go that route just that the devs did not support that role as much.

The debuffer would do as much damage as the tank or healer so there's no damage meters nonsense. The thing about debuffs is that it doesn't put that into the damage meters as part of your contribution. It increases all the party's damage though you don't get credit for it but if there was no damage dealers and just debuffers you would become a welcomed addition to the party.

Heck maybe make debuffs stack ONLY if you had more than one debuffer so every debuffer can apply their debuff on the enemy.

I think you should'nt be a DPS class if you don't like to DPS. Focus on the controller DPS or the tank DPS or something. Or play a different class, like the healer debuffer.

I fully disagree to remove a "DPS" subset of classing out of the game because you feel its been "basic and unoriginal" well there are a lot of people (most people in fact according to studies) that like to play DPS. There are a lot of flavors of DPS too, in this game there is no different you can have more than one job as a DPS. You are not only going to be looking at dmg meters eithers. Sure some classes will be better for DPS than others, however, you will also lose out on other factors. Like CC, Debuffs, Back up Healing, AOE, etc etc. All these can come from DPS roles and based on the sub role you pick you can have other things you can do.

I think the key factor here is that if people can't see that a debuff is doing it's work, then its likely not working very well. Also this game is way slower than that other game so you can see what people are doing much easier. In those games you don't even see someone casting or using skills you just looking at it at the end of the fight in a DPS meter. Here you can see when someone does stuff, mob life can be effected greatly, aggro and etc.

I do feel like our skills are lack luster in how powerful they feel however, at least you have the time to see what people are doing.
 

innosa

Member
Your delirious - DPS is DPS - end of story - Tank and healer need to adapt and do their jobs - if someone is pulling mobs and not listening to the group or not giving the tank enough time to get agro...kick them

But we don't make dps same for everyone tank , healer etc - and we def don't do your change because life is a little harder - find a viable solution in the real world

DPS COME TO DPS...take that away - you already broke the game

Look at EVERYTHING not just YOUR SIDE OF THINGS
Of course I look at everything. To be honest though DPS is everything so it's hard to not see it so a little confused at that suggestion. I look at MMORPGs or any game in fact and it's just dps. It's not hard to see most games are just dpsing.

There's just nothing to be attentive about it. DPSing is mindless, there's nothing to pay attention to. I would suggest all the roles can dps very well, as in increase damage dealt by healer and tank, so you can still dps in any role that's just not your main focus it's just something that comes with the side.
 
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MrDDT

Active Member
There's just nothing to be attentive about it. DPSing is mindless, there's nothing to pay attention to. I would suggest all the roles can dps very well, as in increase damage dealt by healer and tank, so you can still dps in any role that's just not your main focus it's just something that comes with the side.

I couldn't disagree with this more. I think if you are "mindlessly" dpsing you are likely not going to be good on the meters or in game. Playing at high end and doing raid content as a DPS is very important, you dont mindlessly do it.
Having said that, its even more so in this game that you don't mindlessly do it as you have other factors you account for as your job is almost always not to JUST dps.
 

innosa

Member
I couldn't disagree with this more. I think if you are "mindlessly" dpsing you are likely not going to be good on the meters or in game. Playing at high end and doing raid content as a DPS is very important, you dont mindlessly do it.
Having said that, its even more so in this game that you don't mindlessly do it as you have other factors you account for as your job is almost always not to JUST dps.
Enlighten me how it isn't mindless.
 

MrDDT

Active Member
Enlighten me how it isn't mindless.
Because you are not just doing a rotation.
Sure you have a basic rotation that can get you meh damage, but you need to know how to pick up a rotation and what is powerful or not. Also not all games are the same. If you can just stand there and spam rotation timer/cd's then of course that is going to be more mindless than having to move around, do sub roles than just DPSing. Plus you have the factors of most games have standing in stupid and other mechanics that you need to look out for.

Dumbing down DPS and doing it well as just "mindless" is likely someone who doesn't do well on meters or is just fluffing what they are saying.
 

innosa

Member
Because you are not just doing a rotation.
Sure you have a basic rotation that can get you meh damage, but you need to know how to pick up a rotation and what is powerful or not. Also not all games are the same. If you can just stand there and spam rotation timer/cd's then of course that is going to be more mindless than having to move around, do sub roles than just DPSing. Plus you have the factors of most games have standing in stupid and other mechanics that you need to look out for.

Dumbing down DPS and doing it well as just "mindless" is likely someone who doesn't do well on meters or is just fluffing what they are saying.
Again rotation that's exactly my point. That is mindless. Tanks have to keep track of where enemies are and where they move. Healers have to keep track of where other players are and be within range to use their abilities. Tanks have to put their trust in the other members and the healers have to be managing other health and manage mana, on top of it all tanks and healers have to follow their rotations too and like you would say they too wouldn't know what is the right rotation and risk it as well. There's just more you have to be attentive to. This actually is a deservice to the DPS being seen as offering less to the group. There's a reason why 80% of the population in any game is dps, because it's the easier one to play.

Also rotations are not something you have to change and adapt to it's a prepping attitude. Just like having better gear before adventuring. Tanks and healers are distinguished by their competence based on how they adapt and change based on their party members but dps really doesn't have to do much of that.
 

MrDDT

Active Member
Again rotation that's exactly my point. That is mindless. Tanks have to keep track of where enemies are and where they move. Healers have to keep track of where other players are and be within range to use their abilities. Tanks have to put their trust in the other members and the healers have to be managing other health and manage mana, on top of it all tanks and healers have to follow their rotations too and like you would say they too wouldn't know what is the right rotation and risk it as well. There's just more you have to be attentive to. This actually is a deservice to the DPS being seen as offering less to the group. There's a reason why 80% of the population in any game is dps, because it's the easier one to play.

Also rotations are not something you have to change and adapt to it's a prepping attitude. Just like having better gear before adventuring. Tanks and healers are distinguished by their competence based on how they adapt and change based on their party members but dps really doesn't have to do much of that.

How do you read that whole thing and come out with "See you said rotation!" I said not all games are the same IF you can just stand there and spam a rotation yes its going to be mindless but most games are not like this.
Well studies say not because it's mindless just FYI they say because they like to do damage in games.
You talk about range DPS have to factor that in also. They also have to worry about mechanics, and threat. Rotations in most games get broken by other things happening, this is what a good DPSer good, they can change targets and work on a new creature, use AOEs when they should use AOEs and not break CC etc etc.

You have dumbed down all DPSing to just rotation and it's not. Plus you have made it seem like buffing/debuffing is not factored into games because they don't normally show up on DPS meters. I can tell you right now most raiding groups require classes that can do debuffs and or buffs. So you are really fighting against you own point in the OP.
It's almost like you had someone say "your DPS is bad because of meter" and now you hate that factor. When the real side of it is, most games need some classes for a skill or 2 and then the rest need to be good at DPS.
If you are not good at DPS be a different class. Be one that is "required" like a debuffer, or a buffer, or healer etc etc.

Anyways my point is that DPS should not be thrown out because you don't like to play DPS only role, if you want to be a debuffer or a buffer play that role. Cool thing is there are choices.
Key is, valid choices. IMO lets not try to remove choices (removing DPS only role) because you don't like to play it.
 

innosa

Member
I'm just saying if they were debuffers and buffers they would be attentive to something. And let's be real no dps cares about threat. And I'm actually glad you mentioned about dpsers and threat. The truth is most of them WANTS to have more threat than the tank because they feel this proves theyre doing more damage than everyone else and puffs up their ego. Many admit or rather tout this a lot. I would rather see dps high on any role just that there isn't a specific dps role because that role is pretty diminished in it's value because it requires less effort in it. People avoid playing tanks and healers because that puts their reputation at stake. Nobody questions the reputation of dpsers in performance because they don't have one or have to maintain one that's why it's easier to be one and why everyone plays dps. Even classes that can tank or heal would rather be dpsing and try and get others to tank and healer instead of them. DPSing is just so easy you forget about it but it doesn't bring any challenge to you.

A DPS only class just devalues themselves.
 

MrDDT

Active Member
I'm just saying if they were debuffers and buffers they would be attentive to something. And let's be real no dps cares about threat. And I'm actually glad you mentioned about dpsers and threat. The truth is most of them WANTS to have more threat than the tank because they feel this proves theyre doing more damage than everyone else and puffs up their ego. Many admit or rather tout this a lot. I would rather see dps high on any role just that there isn't a specific dps role because that role is pretty diminished in it's value because it requires less effort in it. People avoid playing tanks and healers because that puts their reputation at stake. Nobody questions the reputation of dpsers in performance because they don't have one or have to maintain one that's why it's easier to be one and why everyone plays dps. Even classes that can tank or heal would rather be dpsing and try and get others to tank and healer instead of them. DPSing is just so easy you forget about it but it doesn't bring any challenge to you.

A DPS only class just devalues themselves.

Well you care about it in this game as if you pull threat, you get crushed. Like 1/2 your life crushed. 2 hits and you very well can be dead, also causing massive amounts of STA use for healers/support roles.
Most other games I agree had threat as pretty much non-factor or so built into the class you didn't pull threat unless you are much higher level or something than others.

I've never seen where people "wants" this but I agree a lot of people didn't normally think about threat is most games as it's not pushed or punished harshly if you die, or pull threat, even sometimes it might be a joke like you saying where they are like "You can't keep threat you suck" or whatever. I agree sometimes they don't take that extra care to make sure they are not pulling threat.
However, a lot of games also I've seen many a time you get a bad DPS and they pull threat before the tank right off the pull and they die, and every laughs at them until they learn.
It's not like that for the group's I've been in this game, people are very mindful of threat. I do think there needs to be more balance on threat from tanks as I'm pretty sure one of the skills is not working as well as it should (provoke) but it's a big deal.

So the end of your post kind of goes against what you were saying in the 5th post.
"DPS won't buff others or debuff enemies because they would rather spend their resources climbing up the damage meters"
Well it sounds like to me that these people are playing DPS because they like to ummmm DPS. They likely don't want to tank or heal or buff or debuff. So why force them into a role they don't like?

I would if I was of your opinion, I would want choices of roles of things to do, like a debuffing or buffing role. Which this game does. If you don't want to be a DPSer don't be, be a buffing/debuffing class.
 

Rev

Well-Known Member
Brigand gets CC type skills to go with their dps. Warden gets buffs/debuffs and small heals along with dps. Bezerker is probably the most pure dps of the 3. I assume they will have the highest armor weight allowed of the 3 strikers classes. They share a little in common with the Juggernaut, especially if they get skills like Grit to boost defense and be able to take some hits while dealing out the damage. All have differences and aren't all just mindless dps.