Who actualy like Bag retrieval (Bag run)?

[Xavure]

I'm curious about that, I've had myself some frustrations about it, so I would like to know what is the point of doing this?
Even the players that used to play Everquest, they pretty much told me that they hated it back then and still does today.

What is the point really?

 

[Undone]

I'm curious about that, I've had myself some frustrations about it, so I would like to know what is the point of doing this?
Even the players that used to play Everquest, they pretty much told me that they hated it back then and still does today.

What is the point really?

A game's "death penalty" plays into how careful you are about traversing the world. If you can lose gear/money/etc you are going to be a lot more careful in what you do and where you go.

EQ's death mechanic was fairly brutal. You woke up naked somewhere and your corpse decayed in 7 days. If you did not retrieve your belongings by then they were simply gone. On top of all that you lost a hefty amount of experience and could actually de-level your character. Because of this death had meaning in EQ; people did not want to die. Contrast this to a game like WoW in which death means basically nothing. You lose a bit of durability and get a temporary debuff.

Our goal is for death to mean something. Death is an opportunity for learning: why did we die? how did we screw up? how can we prevent that from happening in the future? how can we get better as a team? I feel that our "death penalty" is fair but not overly punishing. I don't think there's a way to remove all of the frustration from a death mechanic without making it completely trivial.

 

[Xavure]

Alright fair enough, but with limited playtime, this is not a viable mechanic IMO.

 

[Undone]

Alright fair enough, but with limited playtime, this is not a viable mechanic IMO.

Care to elaborate on what you mean?

 

[Xavure]

Let's say I have 1 hour to play per session:
Decided to unlock the monoliths and then grind mobs the rest of the play session.
We then died at one spot where there was red mobs all over the place, even on the road and was impossible to pass. (bad choice??...maybe)
Tried for the time I had left to retreive the bags, but could not.

Next play session, I needed to find a good group to help get my bag, but I couldn't.....I grinded mobs just for the XP or leveled another char.
It took 3 play sessions of my hard earned free time, to do something I didn't liked at all......

Note that this is not a true story, but it will happen. Actually something similar happened, but I had more spare time this session and I could forfeit my bag because there was not much in it, but it made me think about it.
All I'm saying is, this type of mechanic, is frustrating for players with limited playtime and i'm not sure, but most of your customers will have limited playtime.

 

[Undone]

Let's say I have 1 hour to play per session:
Decided to unlock the monoliths and then grind mobs the rest of the play session.
We then died at one spot where there was red mobs all over the place, even on the road and was impossible to pass. (bad choice??...maybe)
Tried for the time I had left to retreive the bags, but could not.

Next play session, I needed to find a good group to help get my bag, but I couldn't.....I grinded mobs just for the XP or leveled another char.
It took 3 play sessions of my hard earned free time, to do something I didn't liked at all......

Note that this is not a true story, but it will happen. Actually something similar happened, but I had more spare time this session and I could forfeit my bag because there was not much in it, but it made me think about it.
All I'm saying is, this type of mechanic, is frustrating for players with limited playtime and i'm not sure, but most of your customers will have limited playtime.

And if we remove the bag mechanic what penalties does death now impose? A time sink of wounds and a slight durability hit? If there is no risk of losing your items, your money, etc, then what's the point of a death mechanic at all? We want the player to have a healthy respect for the dangers out in the world.

Players can forfeit the contents of their bag at any time. The only thing you lose is the contents of your bag - but that's the price of losing your bag in a tough spot.

 

[Xavure]

I don't know what would be best, but my first goal of this post was to hear other players about it.

 

[Undone]

I don't know what would be best, but my first goal of this post was to hear other players about it.

Fair enough! Let the discussion begin!

 

[Rev]

I feel like it has been a while since I have played an MMO that actually had a penalty for death that mattered at all. These types of MMOs don't require a lot of thought and many will just use a "zerg" mentality since there is no penalty. I don't see why people would be upset with it as long as the beginning tutorials make it clear what the penalties are. If you are aware of that, then you change what you do accordingly. You don't risk a bag full of loot by running through a field of red cons if you don't want to risk losing said bag of loot. IMO, having some meaningful consequence of death makes players play smarter, use more strategy and not just "rambo" or "Leeroy Jenkins" into content. Does it sting at times? Sure. That is part of the game though and it makes it mean more when I don't die and survive a close call.

Perhaps add a NPC in the city who specializes in bag retrieval and will get your bag for you, at a cost of course. That way if you have a super cool piece of gear you got off a boss just before you wiped at the bottom of a dungeon, you can pay to get it back. That would be an option for those without the time to get it or lack a group to go back in and get it. I think EQ now has something similar where you can summon your corpse to a guild hall, but you need a stone that costs money. I know that when I played EQ, if you got desperate enough, you could hire a Necro to summon it so that was always an option.

 

[Denley]

I have no problem with the bag retrieval concept. Likely you will lose players over this. Even getting fairly creative and coordinating in discord, we died 8-9 times trying to get just one of our group's bag back, one got it later, and 2 eventually released. I could see players quitting the game over this.

Please consider these tweaks.
1. Some mechanism of kindness/grace if you die on a road. (We died on a road trying to unlock a monolith, not chanting/adventuring/pushing the limits of our group). Maybe if you die on a road so many times that your AC is now 1, you get your bag back. (yes my AC went down to 1 trying to get my bag back) Maybe we should not been in Redshore to begin with, but we were curious.
2. Some roads are "safe passages" Ie you stay on this particular road, you don't get agro for just running down this road. This is important for low server population trying to make a group and limited port system to get around.
3. You can get your bag back automatically after a period of time (24-48 hours) with penalties (repair cost. "lost my lunch money again" title for a week, your toon appears completely grey without a bag)
4. EQ had necromancers to summon corpses, but it also had cleric rezzing at were the cleric was standing vs where the mob/bag are standing. Consider some mechanic to be able move your bag 100' without getting agro
5. Install a mercenary guard NPC to "retrieve bag" for you a princely sum, or at least sell you back the key item(s) that you really want in it.

I don't mind hard.

I appreciate you listening.

Keep up the good work trying to find the balance

 

[Undone]

I have no problem with the bag retrieval concept. Likely you will lose players over this. Even getting fairly creative and coordinating in discord, we died 8-9 times trying to get just one of our group's bag back, one got it later, and 2 eventually released. I could see players quitting the game over this.

I am curious - are people generally aware of the "forfeit bag" option? Or did you have something in your bag worth that much time and effort to retrieve? You can very easily get back to "normal" by forfeiting your bag without having to retrieve it (at the cost of what was inside).

 

[RazorBrains]

Harsh death penalties will only prevent people from doing difficult and challenging content.

In some old MMO's you could actually lose a full level on death. Lets say each death would cost you 3+ hours of playtime. How many people would realistically take on encounters with a 50% death chance. With each death costing them 3+ hours of play.

So obviously people that like harsh death penalties are the same ones that want a 99.99% chance of success. They like easy mode, and the slight chance of death is their pretend version of hard mode.

There is a reason MMO's have moved away from harsh death penalties, mainly because players don't like it. Usually there is repair cost or something else similar.

This game already has when you die you have to run back to your corpse. How does that not prevent people dieing all the time doing difficult encounters. The bag retrieval system is just another kick to the teeth. Not sure why the Devs don't value peoples time.

 

[Undone]

In some old MMO's you could actually lose a full level on death. Lets say each death would cost you 3+ hours of playtime. How many people would realistically take on encounters with a 50% death chance. With each death costing them 3+ hours of play.

Which is precisely why we do not impose an xp penalty for death.

There is a reason MMO's have moved away from harsh death penalties, mainly because players don't like it. Usually there is repair cost or something else similar.

Many modern MMOs have trivialized death to the point that players do not respect the world. There's nothing to fear if there is nothing at stake. If there is no risk then what is the point? With no risk the sense of accomplishment when you actually succeed is greatly diminished.

This game already has when you die you have to run back to your corpse. How does that not prevent people dieing all the time doing difficult encounters. The bag retrieval system is just another kick to the teeth.

The primary way our bag system differs from other MMOs (with any sort of corpse mechanic) is that you can't interact with anything until you get your bag. This is because you can't add/remove things from your inventory if you don't have it - providing the primary incentive for the player to retrieve their bag in the first place. Given that we don't impose any experience penalty this is what we arrived at after numerous iterations. And again - a player can forfeit their bag at any time and return to "normal" at the cost of what was in their bag.

Not sure why the Devs don't value peoples time.

I think our company has proven time and time again that we are willing to listen and have a conversation about these contentious subjects while making changes to better the game for everyone. But making statements like these because we don't make the game how you would have done it is very disingenuous.

 

[Nfab35]

And if we remove the bag mechanic what penalties does death now impose? A time sink of wounds and a slight durability hit? If there is no risk of losing your items, your money, etc, then what's the point of a death mechanic at all? We want the player to have a healthy respect for the dangers out in the world.

Players can forfeit the contents of their bag at any time. The only thing you lose is the contents of your bag - but that's the price of losing your bag in a tough spot.

But aren't there enough penalties already in the game? We're penalized for inv/storage, penalized for lack of gear and weapons, penalized for having to constantly run for everything we do, penalized for lack of named mobs and rare spawns that drop loot really no better than common drops, penalized by a broken RNG system... Pretty much across the board we're penalized in multiple ways constantly. With the extreme limitations we already have to endure it's just another wrench In the gears people have to try to stomach when testing your game.
I would suggest, albeit a suggestion... Start listening to more than just a select few who are leading this game down the wrong path imo. There is so much you could do with the game and add to it that won't take away from your low fantasy etc etc and still make the game intriguing and fun. But sadly the lack there of to be open to the many suggestions I've seen over the last 6 months leads me to believe it's a lost cause and not worth the effort anylonger.... Hence why I have walked away and honestly don't plan on coming back for more time wasted testing, let alone paying a subscription upon release for a game with so many limitations.
I wish this team nothing but the best and hopefully everything works out for you. But I cant help but think with over 20+ years of playing mmo's and seeing this game work nothing like any of them which were very successful mmo's, I cant help but think if this game doesn't learn to change and adapt and continues to go after the small minuscule fringe minority it seems to be going after. Upon release it will dead upon arrival.

Good luck

 

[Denley]

"to get just one of our group's bag back, one got it later, and 2 eventually released."
Correction, I should have used "forfeit bag" in place of "released"

 

[KnightFalz]

Death penalties do not aid in learning. They increase the bother of it and as such are contrary to that process. With or without the same things must be learned to ultimately succeed.

What death penalties provide is relevance. The potential for consequence gives more weight to the decisions made and actions taken. It raises player investment and game play becomes more absorbing and memorable as a result. While players may hate the penalty itself what comes with is the allure that gives it value.

 

[KnightFalz]

But aren't there enough penalties already in the game? We're penalized for inv/storage, penalized for lack of gear and weapons, penalized for having to constantly run for everything we do, penalized for lack of named mobs and rare spawns that drop loot really no better than common drops, penalized by a broken RNG system... Pretty much across the board we're penalized in multiple ways constantly. With the extreme limitations we already have to endure it's just another wrench In the gears people have to try to stomach when testing your game.
I would suggest, albeit a suggestion... Start listening to more than just a select few who are leading this game down the wrong path imo. There is so much you could do with the game and add to it that won't take away from your low fantasy etc etc and still make the game intriguing and fun. But sadly the lack there of to be open to the many suggestions I've seen over the last 6 months leads me to believe it's a lost cause and not worth the effort anylonger.... Hence why I have walked away and honestly don't plan on coming back for more time wasted testing, let alone paying a subscription upon release for a game with so many limitations.
I wish this team nothing but the best and hopefully everything works out for you. But I cant help but think with over 20+ years of playing mmo's and seeing this game work nothing like any of them which were very successful mmo's, I cant help but think if this game doesn't learn to change and adapt and continues to go after the small minuscule fringe minority it seems to be going after. Upon release it will dead upon arrival.

Good luck

There are more than enough penalties if one feels everything the game offers to be so. But if that is the case, why play it? There is an abundance of games that provide extremity in player convenience. What you seek already exists dozens of time over at a far grander scale and scope. This game is trying to be other than that for those that want a contrasting experience. It makes no sense to make common out of what is rare when common is already plentiful.

 

[Undone]

Start listening to more than just a select few who are leading this game down the wrong path imo. There is so much you could do with the game and add to it that won't take away from your low fantasy etc etc and still make the game intriguing and fun. But sadly the lack there of to be open to the many suggestions I've seen over the last 6 months leads me to believe it's a lost cause and not worth the effort anylonger.

I'm really sorry you feel this way. We do our best to listen to ALL feedback from ALL players. As designers we have to balance the requests of players with the design intent and see where things could be improved. And when changes are made they are typically small iterations pushing things to some sort of middle ground where most are happy. And I do not agree that we are only listening to feedback from a select few. But if we are, it's only because those select few are the only ones providing feedback. We can't act on feedback we don't receive.

You also have to remember that we're an extremely small team. Currently there are two coders and one designer working on content. This means that we're ALL spinning a ton of plates and some items have to take precedence over others. And a lot of the time when we make a change we don't hear any feedback about that change for weeks. Which means when that feedback comes in we have to realign our headspace to remember all of the previous reasons why something was or was not changed - which often times puts it farther back in the queue of things to do because we're in the middle of something else.

And I'm not trying to give you excuses - this very well may be a failure on our part to listen. I truly am sorry that you feel the way you do. I only wish we had more time to discuss things as they were developing so that we could continue to address them. As I'm sure you know we all want this product to be the best that it can be so I appreciate everyone taking the time to leave any feedback at all.

 

[KnightFalz]

I am curious - are people generally aware of the "forfeit bag" option? Or did you have something in your bag worth that much time and effort to retrieve? You can very easily get back to "normal" by forfeiting your bag without having to retrieve it (at the cost of what was inside).

What is in my bag is the time I spent acquiring the contents of it, and in some cases the luck related to getting it. Forfeiting the bag will not restore any of that. While the process is easy the consequence of doing so may not be easy to bear, which is of course what makes it a meaningful death penalty to begin with. If doing so was truly trivial it would be inadequate for that purpose.

 

[AdricLives]

But aren't there enough penalties already in the game?

I will never understand why there is this "us vs them" perspective when judging how the details of the game are considered. This idea that every system is constructed as some elaborate penalization scheme. To consider something as mundane as an inventory as a penalty upon yourself seems quite silly. The game can be incredibly forgiving, even the most casual of MMOs if you die you have to respawn and run back, but guess what? We don't. you fall down and get back up as long as you have a friend.


I am dumbfounded now that multiple people have accused us of not listening. Especially as these are individuals who I have specifically implemented feedback and suggestions from. I can only assume these comments are coming from a place of bad faith or at least hyperbole, because the validity of these statements do not pass muster.