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Weapons need more options

Kaeolin

Well-Known Member
As the game currently stands, you use lvl 1 gear until 10, then 10 gear til 20 so on and so forth. Gear needs to be wearable when you find it. Gear lvl needs to be brought more in line with the progression as well. to be required to keep the same gear for 10 levels seems kind of silly. Yes, I can craft small upgrades, or find it in the world, but overall it's the same gear with a few stats.
 

Kittik

Well-Known Member
I completely disagree with gear levels. There is already the weight of gear that a player would/will have to manage to see what gear they want to wear, so I see no need for level restrictions on gear.

However, if the studio's intent is to keep levels, then I agree with Kaeolin's statement. Having gear at 1, 10, 20 is silly. Moving gear around to be level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 etc would make finding pieces more fun and add a flavor of excitement when out hunting. But I'd suggest removing level requirements for gear entirely.
 

Cedrych Skye

Active Member
Moving gear around to be level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 etc would make finding pieces more fun
Eh... I hated in WoW and other mmo's when I would loot a cool looking piece of armor, but the rest of the set had level requirements much higher. By the time you could get the full set for the look, the earliest pieces would have been rendered obsolete by level appropriate gear. I saw that problem with crafting as well. Could craft the gear easily enough, but couldn't wear it until some pieces weren't worth wearing anymore.
 

Kittik

Well-Known Member
Eh... I hated in WoW and other mmo's when I would loot a cool looking piece of armor, but the rest of the set had level requirements much higher. By the time you could get the full set for the look, the earliest pieces would have been rendered obsolete by level appropriate gear. I saw that problem with crafting as well. Could craft the gear easily enough, but couldn't wear it until some pieces weren't worth wearing anymore.
Don't get me wrong. I don't what level restrictions on gear at all. But if there are, 10 level in between gear levels is ludicrous.
 

AdricLives

Administrator
Stormhaven Studios
There's some nuance to this and I partially agree and has been on my mind for a while now.

First just because something has lvl 1 required doesn't mean you just have it at lvl 1. We want things to be in a range of "things you can kill give you gear you can wear" and while progressing 1-9 you find gear to equip that has reqs of lvl 1. Similarly once you hit level 10 you don't automatically get a full set of lvl 10 gear with nothing to look forward to for 10 levels. You have to work towards equipping yourself with a new batch of gear.

This has a large caveat in that with crafting. You hit lvl 10 and completely replace your entire copper outfit with tin. This is partly why crafted gear was downgraded when compared to the dropped stuff (although crafting bonuses can make up for this difference). So you could outfit yourself with a Tin Cuirass at 10, but maybe you got a Polished Tin Cuirass to drop at 13 and use that as an upgrade.

Additionally with armor weight continuing to increase with levels you may rearrange your gear to best suit your updated stats. This is minor in comparison but does allow for seeking additional items.

One thing I'd note is Armor and Weapons are not viewed in a similar fashion. Armor Weight increases and minor AC increases over the course of a 10 level range is OK, combined with getting uncommon and rares to fill out your gear it is likely "good enough" for now (we will see once people are in their 20s or 30s). But Weapons are much more binary in their upgrade path, lvl 19 might feel like a hell level because its the lowest point in your power curve until the next weapons become available, and the weapon differences from 1 to 10 to 20 can be very impactful. Of course there are rare weapons to be sought out which have large power jumps.

I don't want to give players incremental weapon upgrades all the time, because it ruins the feeling of the upgrade in the first place. But there's definitely a desire to get one once you hit 15,25,35 etc. What I am considering is using _5 materials to create _5 req armor and weapons to help smooth out the equipment gap. This would likely reintroduce alloys and give some better purpose to things like Fir which are in that 5-15 material level range, and perhaps something similar can be utilized for cloth like weaving two types of cloths together (similar to alloys).

This would end up putting us back at 5 levels between upgrades, but I think this should be sufficient to make things feel good well into the 40s. The only issues with this I see is that it's gated behind crafting. Although I might be able to do some clever stuff to get basic merchant gear back in without making item management a nightmare for myself.
 

Kittik

Well-Known Member
Saying how something is supposed to work and in theory looks like it's the right way of doing it does not always equate to fun, engaging or encouraging game play.

Because at level 7 when you're fighting level 10 mobs and they are dropping level 10 required gear, that is not all that encouraging to a player. Same with any other range of levels.
 

Kaeolin

Well-Known Member
First just because something has lvl 1 required doesn't mean you just have it at lvl 1. We want things to be in a range of "things you can kill give you gear you can wear" and while progressing 1-9 you find gear to equip that has reqs of lvl 1. Similarly once you hit level 10 you don't automatically get a full set of lvl 10 gear with nothing to look forward to for 10 levels. You have to work towards equipping yourself with a new batch of gear.
This is the exact problem. We were lvl 7-9 fighting lvl 10 mobs who were dropping level 10 gear. I have a bank full of loot for when I hit 10. Basic upgrades shouldn't be behind some wall of restrictions. You want to stick in some level restricted gear, put it on rare/epic gear. EQ had plenty of items that were level restricted and uncommon, like Jboots and such. In my own case, at lvl 9, I feel so weak compared to the gear I can equip at level 10. As you already mentioned, I'll experience that again at lvl 18 and 19. Upgrades are too far apart. I already addressed this with abilities. 10 level is too far apart, especially when we are only levelling to 50.
 

AdricLives

Administrator
Stormhaven Studios
Because at level 7 when you're fighting level 10 mobs and they are dropping level 10 required gear, that is not all that encouraging to a player. Same with any other range of levels.

So they shouldn't drop that gear until they are lvl 13 then? So if you're lvl 10 beating up the lvl 10 mobs they still drop lvl 1 gear?

Same with any other range of levels.

You seem to understand this already, when working within a system of item levels you will encounter situations where you obtain something you are not quite the appropriate level yet. But the only realistic alternative is Bind on Pickup, which I think is a worse situation generally. Completely removing item restrictions entirely is pretty gamebreaking without severe, built-in, mechanical character limits ala EQ.

Basic upgrades shouldn't be behind some wall of restrictions. You want to stick in some level restricted gear, put it on rare/epic gear.

"Basic" upgrades are still practically doubling your weapon damage, this isn't a 5% upgrade.

Regardless of the gating I think there's too much space between upgrades and I'm looking at solutions. Bypassing gating just makes the problem worse because now instead of upgrades at 1, 10, 20 you might just get upgrades at 1, 5, 25, 50 because you skip upgrades due to weapons not being restricted, like buying a solid weapon from a high level player in EQ and then just using that one weapon for the next 30 levels as is normal for such a system.
 

MrDDT

Active Member
I think level gated is great. I do think there is a jump in level 1 to level 10 gear, however, you have a lot in the middle too, you can get (farmed or buy) from drops of names or specials. I'm not sure how this is going to be after level 10 as I've not seen that content yet. (Only level 11)

I got some thief's blades and the DMG jump from my 1h sword to a 1h TB was major. I did end up dropping the TB for a level 10 weapon shortly after, but I can use that TB on an alt or give to a friend or their alt to use for great leveling up from 1 to 10.

I think currently early on, the skills you get are pretty good feeling as you are leveling, each one is very power. Later on going 9 levels like the OP is saying between skills seems harsh.

@AdricLives
Maybe you can put in stuff that will allow weapon honing or something to give a small bonus based the level of the player. So they at say level 5, they can get a +1 to dmg, then at 15 they can get a +2 dmg. Filling in some of the gaps? Maybe have a crafted option for +2@5th, then +3@15. Something of that nature.
 

MrDDT

Active Member
Saying how something is supposed to work and in theory looks like it's the right way of doing it does not always equate to fun, engaging or encouraging game play.

Because at level 7 when you're fighting level 10 mobs and they are dropping level 10 required gear, that is not all that encouraging to a player. Same with any other range of levels.
Well, the intent is to not fight 3 levels above you, so I don't think this is a super valid point.
I think fighting 1 to 2 levels above you and getting gear 1 to 2 levels above you is great, as you can look forward to growing into it. I see nothing wrong with this really and a benefit for being in a group that can handle higher level mobs.
Personally, I think most groups should be fighting equal level 2^ or 3^ and only really good (well optimized and geared) groups should be fighting +1 or +2 level mobs without bad efficiency in downtime.
 

RazorBrains

Well-Known Member
Maybe you can put in stuff that will allow weapon honing or something to give a small bonus based the level of the player. So they at say level 5, they can get a +1 to dmg, then at 15 they can get a +2 dmg. Filling in some of the gaps? Maybe have a crafted option for +2@5th, then +3@15. Something of that nature.

I agree let me expand on this as a solution so that crafters do not compete with loot drops.

All crafters should give permanent buffs to EVERY weapons/armor/items/food whatever. This includes mob drops and boss drops.

So example a weaponsmith can use ore/skill/reagents to sharpen a weapon say +1 +2 +3 etc... add enchants to weapons whatever.
Armorsmith does same for armor
Provisioner do same for many diff items

These buffs would go on top of items currently in the game. This way anyone getting an item could take their item to a crafter and let them improve the item. This allows crafters to be very useful, but at the same time not compete with loot drops because they an still improve those drops.

This allows crafters to supplement the current system and not have to compete with it. Also crafters will be very useful and might decide to play a crafter full time.
 

Xavure

Active Member
I agree let me expand on this as a solution so that crafters do not compete with loot drops.

All crafters should give permanent buffs to EVERY weapons/armor/items/food whatever. This includes mob drops and boss drops.

So example a weaponsmith can use ore/skill/reagents to sharpen a weapon say +1 +2 +3 etc... add enchants to weapons whatever.
Armorsmith does same for armor
Provisioner do same for many diff items

These buffs would go on top of items currently in the game. This way anyone getting an item could take their item to a crafter and let them improve the item. This allows crafters to be very useful, but at the same time not compete with loot drops because they an still improve those drops.

This allows crafters to supplement the current system and not have to compete with it. Also crafters will be very useful and might decide to play a crafter full time.
I think this is a great idea and this would make crafting much more relevant than what we have now. It could be done using the gems that are already in the game. (Malachite…etc)
 

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
I agree let me expand on this as a solution so that crafters do not compete with loot drops.

All crafters should give permanent buffs to EVERY weapons/armor/items/food whatever. This includes mob drops and boss drops.

So example a weaponsmith can use ore/skill/reagents to sharpen a weapon say +1 +2 +3 etc... add enchants to weapons whatever.
Armorsmith does same for armor
Provisioner do same for many diff items

These buffs would go on top of items currently in the game. This way anyone getting an item could take their item to a crafter and let them improve the item. This allows crafters to be very useful, but at the same time not compete with loot drops because they an still improve those drops.

This allows crafters to supplement the current system and not have to compete with it. Also crafters will be very useful and might decide to play a crafter full time.
In such a system how would a crafter level up their skill? I like the idea in principle, but I'm not sure how to provide any sort of leveling path without providing them with a pile of free swords to enhance?
 

MrDDT

Active Member
In such a system how would a crafter level up their skill? I like the idea in principle, but I'm not sure how to provide any sort of leveling path without providing them with a pile of free swords to enhance?
Couldn't you make it like it is now where you make parts?
So you make parts that you use to enhance, plus off the enhance itself?
 

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
Couldn't you make it like it is now where you make parts?
So you make parts that you use to enhance, plus off the enhance itself?
That was my initial thought. But making 100000x enhancement parts to level up and only actually doing a few enhancements is not going to feel great.
 

MrDDT

Active Member
That was my initial thought. But making 100000x enhancement parts to level up and only actually doing a few enhancements is not going to feel great.
Couldn't you say the same for current gear?
Making 100000x parts to make a weapon to level it up and only doing a few weapons crafting.

I've not done a lot of crafting just outside looking in I guess. Do crafting level up mostly off making the full weapon/armor? It seems from what I've done you make mostly parts.
 

RazorBrains

Well-Known Member
In such a system how would a crafter level up their skill? I like the idea in principle, but I'm not sure how to provide any sort of leveling path without providing them with a pile of free swords to enhance?
Could you just reenchant the same weapon while losing the resource/gem or whatever material?

Also I think these enchants should be allowed to be overwritten with a different enchant anyways.
 

MrDDT

Active Member
I've seen other games that do this with an enhancement grindstone that can be traded to the player wanting the enhancement. One issue with this is that it would create more items the crafters need to store and storage is already extremely limited.
 

RazorBrains

Well-Known Member
I've seen other games that do this with an enhancement grindstone that can be traded to the player wanting the enhancement. One issue with this is that it would create more items the crafters need to store and storage is already extremely limited.

I think having the enchant/grindstone whatever currently tradable to the player to do themselves is probably the simplest way to do this in the current game. A more complicated way is through the trade window but would require an overhaul of the trade window.

I don't like the idea of having to hand over my epic weapon to a crafter to enchant. I would much rather allow them to hand me the enchant so I can enchant my own weapon with it. Other way is too open to scams IMO.
 

MrDDT

Active Member
I think having the enchant/grindstone whatever currently tradable to the player to do themselves is probably the simplest way to do this in the current game. A more complicated way is through the trade window but would require an overhaul of the trade window.

I don't like the idea of having to hand over my epic weapon to a crafter to enchant. I would much rather allow them to hand me the enchant so I can enchant my own weapon with it. Other way is too open to scams IMO.
Yeah I think that's why other games did it that way was to avoid scammers or issues with having to trust people fully.
Having someone walk off with your epic weapon sucks.