What's new
Embers Adrift

Register a free account today to Ignite your Adventure! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate with the Embers Adrift community. Your active account will also be the same account used to purchase, download, and login to the game.

Feedback to much down time on heavy wounds.

is this feedback?

wyatt_berry_earp

Active Member
i am able to come in here make this post. go take a leak. get a Pepsi out of the fridge and still have to sit at the fire after 1 death. that just way to long of down time. i get you want us to talk around the fire but at some point it just to much. that just way to much down time. as more new players come in this will discourage them from wanting to play
 

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
i am able to come in here make this post. go take a leak. get a Pepsi out of the fridge and still have to sit at the fire after 1 death. that just way to long of down time. i get you want us to talk around the fire but at some point it just to much. that just way to much down time. as more new players come in this will discourage them from wanting to play
How much wounds did you have? How long did it take you to heal them? How much downtime would you find appropriate?
 

wyatt_berry_earp

Active Member
How much wounds did you have? How long did it take you to heal them? How much downtime would you find appropriate?
15% im think maybe l 1/3 less time than it is now. i get that you want repercussion's to death. and you want us to sit at the fire and sweet talk with everyone. but all it is used for is bathroom breaks and going to get something to drink. in a gaming world that's a lot of down time. it has also caused times where everyone gets off because we wipe and people dont have the time to sit there and play a little longer. and at points it cause players not to want to try out areas because they don't deem it worth the risk... they dont even want to look for named mobs at points because of the worry of dyeing
 

Dalton

Well-Known Member
It’s only a few mins to recover to max from 15% in my experience. If I’m near an Emberring. I do some repairs , sell some stuff and then sit for a min or two and good to go.
 

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
I just tested this and it took just about 2 minutes and 20 seconds to heal 15% health wounds. Your suggestion of 1/3 of the time would put us at about 27 seconds. Wasn't WoW's res sickness like 10m at higher levels?
 

GeekGirl

Member
If you go to a ring after your first death the wound recoup is not bad.

I waited yesterday until I had 35% wound issues and at that point it was too dangerous for me to solo green one chev mobs. I did this on purpose. I wanted to see how many wounds made fighting impossible (for me it was 35% - I think that was three deaths in a row).

So I went to the ring. And it's great that the Ember can affect you while you sell, while you repair, while you work on crafting. I was able to do all of those things and then still had wait time. I am not complaining. I am not complaining because I did this on purpose to see. I paid for my folly. I understand that.

I also understand what Wyatt_berry_earp is saying. It is going to take a special type of player (and we know this already) to have the patience to wait out things like this. *I* don't mind sitting around the fire and trying to strike up RP with others who pop by, but I factually know that two of the four people in my MMO gaming group absolutely WOULD NOT.

*IF* you wanted to think about ways to make this go faster, I noted that it didn't seem to matter (recoup-wise) if I was fed or not. You could allow food to let the Ember heal wounds a tick or two faster. Alternatively, time spent at a ring could sort of be cumulative. The first 10 seconds you gain 1 tick every 3 seconds. The next 10 it's 1 tick every 2.5. And so on.
 

wyatt_berry_earp

Active Member
I just tested this and it took just about 2 minutes and 20 seconds to heal 15% health wounds. Your suggestion of 1/3 of the time would put us at about 27 seconds. Wasn't WoW's res sickness like 10m at higher levels?
i ment to say take a 33% off the total time not make it only 27 sec.
 

wyatt_berry_earp

Active Member
when you are in an area testing like i am some of the time. I'm alone doing berry things lol./ you start to hand a mob its ass and then for some reason more come out of no where. we have all been there. and when everyone getting tired and still wants to play that timer becomes a really big factor.

so after you get your ass handed to you. mob 1 down then your down and you want to check the loot on it well guess what you cant get to it in time. there are some other things that could be looked into.

like faint death lol

time for looting increased

time for heavy wounds lowered
ect....
 

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
when you are in an area testing like i am some of the time. I'm alone doing berry things lol./ you start to hand a mob its ass and then for some reason more come out of no where. we have all been there. and when everyone getting tired and still wants to play that timer becomes a really big factor.

so after you get your ass handed to you. mob 1 down then your down and you want to check the loot on it well guess what you cant get to it in time. there are some other things that could be looked into.

like faint death lol

time for looting increased

time for heavy wounds lowered
ect....
I did the math wrong anyway because it was late. So you are saying go from 2m 20s --> 1m 40s?
 

Grue

New Member
Sitting by the fire kind of kills the flow imo. Perhaps standard rez sickness would be another approach and instead use fires as an option to speed rez sickness recovery.

1) Rez sickness allows players to start heading back to where they were to keep things moving along when required, but is still a punishment. Reduced combat effectiveness and/or movement speed would make this a hazardous task.
2) Have fires reduce rez sickness more quickly. So instead of having a slowly reducing rez sickness for 20 minutes, you can reduce it to 2-3 minutes (or whatever). Make sitting by fires a trade off, do I risk running back now, or do I wait until I'm full strength/speed? Is the mob loot worth the risk, is my bag worth the risk before respawns start, does my group really need me right now, etc...
3) Add a buff when hanging out by a fire and you don't have any rez sickness. Maybe an out of combat movement speed buff, or increased resistance, etc... The longer you hang out, the longer the buff lasts until some kind of cap is reached. This would allow someone who is waiting for a group to get to where they need to be a little quicker or safer, make crafting better, etc... Also, people congregate where there is a chance to get buffs. Look at PoP/GH in EQ, Origimmar in WoW, etc... You could have different types of fires, only a central fire in each zone provides the buff and the other minor fires only reduce rez sickness.

By making fires the proverbial naughty corner where bad players go to think about what they did, it'll make people want to avoid them, I know I do. Reward desired behavior. You want people by the fires, let them feel like its a reason to be there beyond recovering from a whoopsie doodle. Lore wise, for the added buff, the fire provides some kind of strength, a light against the darkness, basking in the power of the ember would fortify your spirit for future conflict, etc...


Cheers!
 
Last edited:

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
Sitting by the fire kind of kills the flow imo. Perhaps standard rez sickness would be another approach and instead use fires as an option to speed rez sickness recovery.

1) Rez sickness allows players to start heading back to where they were to keep things moving along when required, but is still a punishment. Reduced combat effectiveness and/or movement speed would make this a hazardous task.
2) Have fires reduce rez sickness more quickly. So instead of having a slowly reducing rez sickness for 20 minutes, you can reduce it to 2-3 minutes (or whatever). Make sitting by fires a trade off, do I risk running back now, or do I wait until I'm full strength/speed? Is the mob loot worth the risk, is my bag worth the risk before respawns start, does my group really need me right now, etc...

By making fires the proverbial naughty corner where bad players go to think about what they did, it'll make people want to avoid them, I know I do. Reward desired behavior. You want people by the fires, let them feel like its a reason to be there not forced to be there. Lore wise, for the added buff, the fire provides some kind of strength, a light against the darkness, basking in the power of the ember would fortify your spirit for future conflict, etc...
It sounds like you are suggesting we remove wounds entirely from the game? To me that would just driving us to a more WoW-like state. The whole premise of our game was built around Ember Rings healing your wounds...

3) Add a buff when hanging out by a fire and you don't have any rez sickness. Maybe an out of combat movement speed buff, or increased resistance, etc... The longer you hang out, the longer the buff lasts until some kind of cap is reached. This would allow someone who is waiting for a group to get to where they need to be a little quicker or safer, make crafting better, etc... Also, people congregate where there is a chance to get buffs. Look at PoP/GH in EQ, Origimmar in WoW, etc... You could have different types of fires, only a central fire in each zone provides the buff and the other minor fires only reduce rez sickness.
We have discussed something similar in the past. The issue we ran into was that at some point this would become another "required" task one must do before setting off to adventure. Any system like this becomes something that a player "must do" otherwise they feel as though they are less effective - which will eventually turn sitting by the ember ring into an actual chore. Someone waiting for a group will now think twice before heading out and gathering, soloing, etc while they wait because once they find a group they would have to return to an Ember Ring for their mandatory buff.
 

Grue

New Member
It sounds like you are suggesting we remove wounds entirely from the game? To me that would just driving us to a more WoW-like state. The whole premise of our game was built around Ember Rings healing your wounds...
To make a hyperbolic statement... The whole premise was to sit by the fire?

Nothing in the description of the game on the site suggests a time sink of this nature... It talks of challenging combat, sweeping quests, group play, and old school inspiration. With all respect, and I'm not trying to sound like an arse, but allow me to quote the FAQ. "[...] While many modern MMOs trade engagement for convenience, Embers Adrift attempts to strike a balance that respects our players’ time and offers an immersive experience."

My immersion is definitely borked when I sit by the fire and my time does not feel like its being respected. My mob's corpse de-spawn timer is running down, or my bag is getting surrounded by respawns or my group is waiting on me or starts breaking up because recovering is taking too long. Yes, I could run back to the location with my wounds, but I ultimately have to run back to an Ember Ring at some point to recover my wounds in order to be effective... There is a required payment of X number of minutes/seconds of sitting at a specific location. Basically your point about making sitting by the fire a requirement in order to play and it becomes a chore.

While wounds going away would provide a kind of WOW-like state as you put it... I think its closer to an EQ-like state. WoW had a far easier death recovery system and I would argue that even with resurrection sickness EA has a more difficult death recovery process than EQ due to the lack of long duration buffs, no reliable way to bypass content (invis, etc) and no resurrections. The major advantage EA has over EQ for death recovery is all classes will spawn relatively close to the point of death assuming you picked up the closest bind point.

But, that's beside the point, I'm not saying wounds have to go away, but other options opposed to exclusively sitting by the fire to mend wounds could be explored.

Other options (keeping in mind that hanging out by an ember ring would remain the fastest way to heal wounds);
1) Make wounds heal very slowly by sitting down, maybe there's some kind of cap, like you can never heal wounds past 90% out in the field or based on some other stat...
2) or Wounds heal slowly when in the presence of a ground torch or some kind of specially crafted consumable Ember torch.
3) or Wounds heal in the presence of another placed item, we'll say an "Ember Lantern". The lantern could be "charged" when in the presence of an Ember Ring to a maximum capacity in minutes/ticks (either immediately or over time). Make it an item with an ability that "places" a lantern down for the duration and consumes the charge on cast. Rare lanterns could have increased duration, increased wound cap or faster wound healing rates or other effects. Reduces but does not eliminate the importance of the ember rings as they will always heal wounds the fastest and you have to visit to recharge your lantern. Wound healing could be disabled when in combat stance, or allow increased healing rates when in combat stance as a kind of "light against the darkness" vibe. Could make charging the lantern a solo-able quest. You'd create a secondary market for those willing to pay money for components if they were mob drops.

Any who.. point is there is mechanics to explore that do not involved sitting by the fire...

I don't want to have to hang around the fire, we already have to repair equipment and have several types of consumables that need replenishing which require trips to vendors/crafting/anvil/grind mobs, its one more time sink... I get its an MMO and its all a time sink, but its a twiddle your thumbs time sink, its a reflection of you sitting in front of your computer, doing nothing, accomplishing nothing, counting the minutes until you're allowed to move again... Oooo, that was deep man, a real introspective of my life in front of this computer, and a little disturbing.

We have discussed something similar in the past. The issue we ran into was that at some point this would become another "required" task one must do before setting off to adventure. Any system like this becomes something that a player "must do" otherwise they feel as though they are less effective - which will eventually turn sitting by the ember ring into an actual chore. Someone waiting for a group will now think twice before heading out and gathering, soloing, etc while they wait because once they find a group they would have to return to an Ember Ring for their mandatory buff.
Yes and no?

If we're using hyperbole, of course. Who wouldn't hang out at the fire for 20 minutes to make sure they get a +30% hp and +50 physical resistance that lasts for an hour or four. I would totally log in my toon 30 minutes before I start playing and leave them standing by a fire for the buff and avoid resource gathering. People would definitely hang out there. It'd probably become a trading hub as well. Folks intent on getting the buff and still wanted to craft would buy crafting stuff from people willing to forgo the buff or already got it and are faffing around for the night. Pre-mades would make sure their toons were online and getting buffed before the group formed up for shenanigans, like pre-raid buffs and whatnot. Could also be an incentive to you getting a group before someone else. "Sentinel w/uberbuffx lfg. gtg!!!" Some people feel they need the uberbuffx before they can play for the night, most folks don't give two pinches'o'poo who has what buffs. (EQ reference incoming) Yeah, Hand of Virtue on the tank is awesome and definitely a tankier tank for it, but a tank without HoV is still a better tank than not having a tank. After the first death, cancel magic or duration expires the buff is gone anyway, so it ultimately doesn't matter.


There's also minor things, fluffy things... Stuff like
- Torches have larger light radius or
- Ground torches last 10% longer or
- Out of combat +5% run speed buff or
- +1 per level out of combat resistance buffs
- + X regen
last for 5-10 minutes after being by the fire for a few minutes. Just a little something to get people hanging out for a few minutes at the fire when they want to, before they do decide to run to a group or if they're not doing anything. Not enough of reason to avoid doing other activities, but maybe enough of reason to hang out there instead of just randomly elsewhere.

However, the buffing thing is not really important, just wanted to point out the whole "reward players for things you want them to do", i.e. The positive reinforcement in operant conditioning. Personally I avoid Ember Rings as they represent both positive punishment and negative punishment.


Cheers!
 

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
To make a hyperbolic statement... The whole premise was to sit by the fire?
What I meant is that when we were working on the rebrand a lot of our inspiration came from how campfires naturally provided a tavern-like gathering spot for players during testing.

Nothing in the description of the game on the site suggests a time sink of this nature... It talks of challenging combat, sweeping quests, group play, and old school inspiration. With all respect, and I'm not trying to sound like an arse, but allow me to quote the FAQ. "[...] While many modern MMOs trade engagement for convenience, Embers Adrift attempts to strike a balance that respects our players’ time and offers an immersive experience."

My immersion is definitely borked when I sit by the fire and my time does not feel like its being respected. My mob's corpse de-spawn timer is running down, or my bag is getting surrounded by respawns or my group is waiting on me or starts breaking up because recovering is taking too long. Yes, I could run back to the location with my wounds, but I ultimately have to run back to an Ember Ring at some point to recover my wounds in order to be effective... There is a required payment of X number of minutes/seconds of sitting at a specific location. Basically your point about making sitting by the fire a requirement in order to play and it becomes a chore.
The wound system is pretty core to our adventuring loop and we feel it provides a nice balance to our death mechanic. We are asking the players to continually weigh the risk vs. reward of taking a chance with a reduced pool of health/stamina, or playing it safe and returning to the Ember Ring - sort of a push your luck mechanism. Our game is meant to have some old school roots and part of those roots is some semblance of a death penalty. If you compare our death penalty to games we take heavy inspiration from I think ours is a lot lighter. You don't lose experience, your bag never rots, you keep all of your equipment, you keep all of your pouch contents, and you keep your gathering bag. The negatives we impose are a future time sink (a sort of debt, that you can pay back when you choose), and we ask you to go back to your bag if you want to keep the contents. A single knock out and release leaves you with 15% wounds, which as mentioned above requires roughly 2m & 20s to heal at the Ember Ring. Now this greatly depends on how much time you spent adventuring - but what is the ratio of time required at the ring vs. time you spent adventuring typically? I'd gather to say that in most situations it's a very small amount. We litter Ember Rings everywhere as well - so it's not like they're hard to come by.

While wounds going away would provide a kind of WOW-like state as you put it... I think its closer to an EQ-like state. WoW had a far easier death recovery system and I would argue that even with resurrection sickness EA has a more difficult death recovery process than EQ due to the lack of long duration buffs, no reliable way to bypass content (invis, etc) and no resurrections. The major advantage EA has over EQ for death recovery is all classes will spawn relatively close to the point of death assuming you picked up the closest bind point.
You are forgetting one of the most important aspects of our death recovery when compared with other games - everyone can wake everyone up with the proper consumables. This (in my opinion) makes a huge difference as the frequency of wipes is greatly reduced if a single person in your party can survive.

But, that's beside the point, I'm not saying wounds have to go away, but other options opposed to exclusively sitting by the fire to mend wounds could be explored.

Other options (keeping in mind that hanging out by an ember ring would remain the fastest way to heal wounds);
1) Make wounds heal very slowly by sitting down, maybe there's some kind of cap, like you can never heal wounds past 90% out in the field or based on some other stat...
2) or Wounds heal slowly when in the presence of a ground torch or some kind of specially crafted consumable Ember torch.
3) or Wounds heal in the presence of another placed item, we'll say an "Ember Lantern". The lantern could be "charged" when in the presence of an Ember Ring to a maximum capacity in minutes/ticks (either immediately or over time). Make it an item with an ability that "places" a lantern down for the duration and consumes the charge on cast. Rare lanterns could have increased duration, increased wound cap or faster wound healing rates or other effects. Reduces but does not eliminate the importance of the ember rings as they will always heal wounds the fastest and you have to visit to recharge your lantern. Wound healing could be disabled when in combat stance, or allow increased healing rates when in combat stance as a kind of "light against the darkness" vibe. Could make charging the lantern a solo-able quest. You'd create a secondary market for those willing to pay money for components if they were mob drops.

Any who.. point is there is mechanics to explore that do not involved sitting by the fire...

I don't want to have to hang around the fire, we already have to repair equipment and have several types of consumables that need replenishing which require trips to vendors/crafting/anvil/grind mobs, its one more time sink... I get its an MMO and its all a time sink, but its a twiddle your thumbs time sink, its a reflection of you sitting in front of your computer, doing nothing, accomplishing nothing, counting the minutes until you're allowed to move again... Oooo, that was deep man, a real introspective of my life in front of this computer, and a little disturbing.
lols @ the introspection!

I don't disagree with you that offering some sort of positive incentive for spending time at an Ember Ring would be beneficial as a whole. And I'm happy to continue discussing it and brainstorming potential ideas. My main fear is just turning it into some thing that you MUST DO before heading out to adventure; I don't want that. The ideas you listed regarding "fluffy" things are great and provide decent enough incentive without throwing a wrench into the adventuring balance gears. But none of those options are straight forward enough to work right out of the gate imo.

However, the buffing thing is not really important, just wanted to point out the whole "reward players for things you want them to do", i.e. The positive reinforcement in operant conditioning. Personally I avoid Ember Rings as they represent both positive punishment and negative punishment.
That makes sense and I appreciate you sharing your perspective. I can see how they might be viewed as "negative" so adding some positive offset would help those who view them in that manner.
 

wyatt_berry_earp

Active Member
Sitting by the fire kind of kills the flow imo. Perhaps standard rez sickness would be another approach and instead use fires as an option to speed rez sickness recovery.

1) Rez sickness allows players to start heading back to where they were to keep things moving along when required, but is still a punishment. Reduced combat effectiveness and/or movement speed would make this a hazardous task.
2) Have fires reduce rez sickness more quickly. So instead of having a slowly reducing rez sickness for 20 minutes, you can reduce it to 2-3 minutes (or whatever). Make sitting by fires a trade off, do I risk running back now, or do I wait until I'm full strength/speed? Is the mob loot worth the risk, is my bag worth the risk before respawns start, does my group really need me right now, etc...
3) Add a buff when hanging out by a fire and you don't have any rez sickness. Maybe an out of combat movement speed buff, or increased resistance, etc... The longer you hang out, the longer the buff lasts until some kind of cap is reached. This would allow someone who is waiting for a group to get to where they need to be a little quicker or safer, make crafting better, etc... Also, people congregate where there is a chance to get buffs. Look at PoP/GH in EQ, Origimmar in WoW, etc... You could have different types of fires, only a central fire in each zone provides the buff and the other minor fires only reduce rez sickness.

By making fires the proverbial naughty corner where bad players go to think about what they did, it'll make people want to avoid them, I know I do. Reward desired behavior. You want people by the fires, let them feel like its a reason to be there beyond recovering from a whoopsie doodle. Lore wise, for the added buff, the fire provides some kind of strength, a light against the darkness, basking in the power of the ember would fortify your spirit for future conflict, etc...


Cheers!
he does have a real good point in makings something positive about being by the fire when you havent died. yin and yang
 

wyatt_berry_earp

Active Member
It sounds like you are suggesting we remove wounds entirely from the game? To me that would just driving us to a more WoW-like state. The whole premise of our game was built around Ember Rings healing your wounds...


We have discussed something similar in the past. The issue we ran into was that at some point this would become another "required" task one must do before setting off to adventure. Any system like this becomes something that a player "must do" otherwise they feel as though they are less effective - which will eventually turn sitting by the ember ring into an actual chore. Someone waiting for a group will now think twice before heading out and gathering, soloing, etc while they wait because once they find a group they would have to return to an Ember Ring for their mandatory buff.
don't buff attack or defense. do movement speed evan though you dont like that us players do lol. that way all you get is like 5 min run time at max. you want us to be by the fire make it more than a punishment
 

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
...but allow me to quote the FAQ. "[...] While many modern MMOs trade engagement for convenience, Embers Adrift attempts to strike a balance that respects our players’ time and offers an immersive experience."

My immersion is definitely borked when I sit by the fire and my time does not feel like its being respected.
It almost seems like we need to remove this statement from the FAQ. I feel like every little thing that a player feels is a "time waster" can be viewed through some lens of not respecting that player's time and hence this statement gets weaponized against us. This frequently gets brought up for specific gripes but those posts rarely mention all the other ways in which we do respect your time; especially when compared to some of the older games we all hold so dear to our hearts. I mean this is an MMO - what does "respecting one's time" actually mean? Different mechanics are going to make different people feel different ways depending on their gaming background, their personal preferences, and their personal lives. If you take things to the extreme of "respecting time" you would be handing out rewards on a timer rather than asking the players to put in some effort and earn those rewards.

Also note that our FAQ says "attempts to strike a balance".
 
Last edited:

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
And on a side note - not sure how you view the rings in a negative light. The getting knocked out and giving up is what gives you wounds - the rings heal them. From your descriptions of ember rings one might think that the rings actively gave you the wounds in the first place :p