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Thoughts on the game after a few weeks of

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Rlm962

Member
I've played on available times, for a couple of months now and these are my thoughts, in general:

Like:

1. Areas of the world are nice looking, great topography and interesting to explore.

2. Enjoy that it's hard and leveling is a challenge. Enjoy that you have to put a lot of effort in, if you want to solo it.

3. Enjoy that you have to work for particular items and that it's all not just Handed to you, like some games now do.

Dislikes:

1. I greatly dislike the fact that GRAY mobs, will still aggro. A huge part of MMO enjoyment, at least for me, has been to go back to zones (after I have leveled out of them) and to "Peacefully" enjoy exploring the zone, learning every bit of it, helping friends with low level characters and doing so Without being attacked. Mass aggro, from tons of Gray, no XP, mobs is NOT what I call fun or even interesting. It's annoying and boring.

2. Can't stand the "Chevron System". I get it, you wanted to do something different, but it's not fun. If mobs shouldn't show levels, then player toons shouldn't either, it could be argued. Blah. I would ask that you reconsider this, take away chevrons and show mob levels and hp's.

3. It's been discussed in these forums, a lot, but the lack of Fast Travel is awful. This is a "Must change" or the game will simply be unplayable. Very few people will have the Time in their day, to spend an hour just running to meet a group. Has to go away.

4. I can't stand the lack of accurate maps, and a valid compass. Maybe you will be able to find enough people who want to spend time "looking at the shadows trees cast and judging the position of Nupiter" in order to come up with a SWAG (scientific wild ass guess) about where you are, but it's not for me.

Overall, as it is currently, I'd say it's been Interesting to try but can't see myself playing it long-term. My dislikes are of a much higher magnitude than my likes. However, I'm an Optimist, and I'll keep checking in, until actual launch (just to see if any of this, changes for the better). My 2 cents.
 

Ranos

New Member
As for fast travel...I agree. But making it class based player travel would have been a great "old idea" to bring back to games and create a sub economy. But that would require magic and we don't use that word around here....which is a big turn off to many of my friends, hence why they won't even try it.

Don't get me wrong, I see huge potential in this game, but alot of "quality of life" stuff can be delivered through the use of magic based classes, such as ports for instance. They wouldn't even have to call it ports or even be magical. Let the warden have a skill to find quicker paths between ember rings or be able to call upon giant eagles or the brigand can signal his shipmates from shore and sail to areas with ports. There's many things you can still do with a mild fantasy game to have fast travel incorporated with players.

But I totally disagree with having fast travel locations that are accessible to everyone. Having certain classes that can fast travel via their skills adds to community and the economy cause the gass cash or grass rule applies.....nobody rides for free :)
 

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
Hi @Rlm962 thanks for taking the time to leave feedback! Glad you are enjoying the leveling experience. I'll comment on a few of your dislikes below to share some perspective.

1. I greatly dislike the fact that GRAY mobs, will still aggro. A huge part of MMO enjoyment, at least for me, has been to go back to zones (after I have leveled out of them) and to "Peacefully" enjoy exploring the zone, learning every bit of it, helping friends with low level characters and doing so Without being attacked. Mass aggro, from tons of Gray, no XP, mobs is NOT what I call fun or even interesting. It's annoying and boring.
This is on my list of things to adjust. Aggro in our game is a bit more complex than a simple "range". Each NPC has a set of sensors that can have different detection thresholds and distances which is based on the NPC and not the player. Making adjustments to these thresholds and distances on a per-player basis is something I can likely do, but it is lower on the priority list right now as it will take some engineering time. I do hope to swing back around to it "soon".

2. Can't stand the "Chevron System". I get it, you wanted to do something different, but it's not fun. If mobs shouldn't show levels, then player toons shouldn't either, it could be argued. Blah. I would ask that you reconsider this, take away chevrons and show mob levels and hp's.
Could you go into more detail about what you dislike about the chevron system? It's not a new concept, nor is it anything different than what has been done in other games to differentiate more challenging mobs of the same level (see Vanguard SoH). We aren't trying to innovate here - just trying to convey the most information in an intuitive manner with as little UI clutter as possible.

3. It's been discussed in these forums, a lot, but the lack of Fast Travel is awful. This is a "Must change" or the game will simply be unplayable. Very few people will have the Time in their day, to spend an hour just running to meet a group. Has to go away.
We are working on it. As I've told others, we are laying the groundwork for systems like this but they take time to develop.

4. I can't stand the lack of accurate maps, and a valid compass. Maybe you will be able to find enough people who want to spend time "looking at the shadows trees cast and judging the position of Nupiter" in order to come up with a SWAG (scientific wild ass guess) about where you are, but it's not for me.
From a design standpoint we are never going to add a GPS marker to the map. We do plan on improving the discoverability aspect of the maps (separate region discovery from POI discoveries, etc), but the rough landscape and positions of POIs is pretty settled. We feel that the current map style provides the right balance for what we are going for information wise. And no one is asking you to look at the shadows of the trees to determine your direction. The position of the planet in the sky doesn't move - it is static.
 

Xeen

Member
And no one is asking you to look at the shadows of the trees to determine your direction.
Hah, I probably did.

Given the fact that the OP said 'Nupiter', this is probably some advice I gave them among many options or they read my thread.

Landmarks, reading shadows, knowing time of day, using the north reference, or even cheating by looking at terrain texturing patterns for orientation all work quite well.

What's wrong with reading shadows (does not have to be a tree, a signpost or even your own shadow works)?! Ok so not everyone has the knack for navigation. There are multiple ways to do it. I tried to be helpful.

'No compass' annoyed the hell out of me too for awhile, but I figured out ways to do without. Thankfully, the game seems to be intentionally designed to allow for this.
 

RazorBrains

Well-Known Member
Could you go into more detail about what you dislike about the chevron system? It's not a new concept, nor is it anything different than what has been done in other games to differentiate more challenging mobs of the same level (see Vanguard SoH). We aren't trying to innovate here - just trying to convey the most information in an intuitive manner with as little UI clutter as possible.

I think the Chevron system is a little complex for new players, although the more you play the more you figure it out. So I am not against it. I don't see what the difference is between ^^^ or ***, or >>> or … or names. Maybe I am missing some point people are making I don't know. But it seems people are confused by a level 10^ and a level 10^^ thinking the ^^ is just higher level. What is missing is its not higher level but same level with higher stats/hp/xp/damage etc...

Elites and Bosses with higher XP/HP/Dmg/Defense/Stats is standard for just about every MMO. The problem here is these Elites are not standing out as such.

Couple of immersive ways to integrate it I think:
1) would be a good naming convention like 1^ = bandit, 2^=bandit leader, 3^ = elite bandit, 4^ elite bandit leader, 5^ Boss, 6^ Elite Boss .....

Once people start looking at it like this, I think they will start to understand the system better. Doubt you would even need to change all the mob names, probably just some early on so people understand the system better.

2) Size scaling, sure there are some size differences on mobs with different chevrons but I don't think its enough at higher end. I personally would like rares and bosses to be much larger. The more epic the better. Nobody wants to fight a boss rat or deer that is just some small little creature. Make it epic IMO, size of buildings would be awesome.
 
I think the Chevron system is a little complex for new players, although the more you play the more you figure it out. So I am not against it. I don't see what the difference is between ^^^ or ***, or >>> or … or names. Maybe I am missing some point people are making I don't know. But it seems people are confused by a level 10^ and a level 10^^ thinking the ^^ is just higher level. What is missing is its not higher level but same level with higher stats/hp/xp/damage etc...

Elites and Bosses with higher XP/HP/Dmg/Defense/Stats is standard for just about every MMO. The problem here is these Elites are not standing out as such.

Couple of immersive ways to integrate it I think:
1) would be a good naming convention like 1^ = bandit, 2^=bandit leader, 3^ = elite bandit, 4^ elite bandit leader, 5^ Boss, 6^ Elite Boss .....

Once people start looking at it like this, I think they will start to understand the system better. Doubt you would even need to change all the mob names, probably just some early on so people understand the system better.

2) Size scaling, sure there are some size differences on mobs with different chevrons but I don't think its enough at higher end. I personally would like rares and bosses to be much larger. The more epic the better. Nobody wants to fight a boss rat or deer that is just some small little creature. Make it epic IMO, size of buildings would be awesome.
I think it was purely to differentiate the content between solo/group etc.

The problem with the elite argument is that no other MMO had as many elites running around willy nilly as EA has. Up until the recent change 2 and 3^ were ten a penny and just normal mobs really when you looked at how many there were (there were just far too many and so not really elite or rare). Now a 2 & 3^ feels a bit more elite and rare as they are not just everywhere.
 

Rlm962

Member
Could you go into more detail about what you dislike about the chevron system? It's not a new concept, nor is it anything different than what has been done in other games to differentiate more challenging mobs of the same level (see Vanguard SoH). We aren't trying to innovate here - just trying to convey the most information in an intuitive manner with as little UI clutter as possible.
First, just for the record. I'm not new to MMO's. I've been playing them since March 1999, when EQ was released.

To be more specific, regarding the Chevrons:

The problem with the elite argument is that no other MMO had as many elites running around willy nilly as EA has.
^ This is a good statement, there are simply too many of them. If everyone is Elite, then no one is really Elite.
Couple of immersive ways to integrate it I think:
1) would be a good naming convention like 1^ = bandit, 2^=bandit leader, 3^ = elite bandit, 4^ elite bandit leader, 5^ Boss, 6^ Elite Boss .....
^ This is a good idea: a Bandit would = Level 1; Bandit Squad Leader = level 3; Bandit Sub-Chieftain = level 5; Bandit Chieftain = level 7, etc. (insert any naming system you prefer. But just name them differentially and use higher level numbers. KISS)





This is on my list of things to adjust. Aggro in our game is a bit more complex than a simple "range".
Great. If you are going to correct it, that will work.





We feel that the current map style provides the right balance for what we are going for information wise.
We will just have to agree, to disagree on this. Me and others who don't like the current map system, will simply have to see if ya'll change it enough to be tolerable or not <shrug>. I'm ok with a Bit of difficulty, what I simply don't have time for, is spending 30 minutes trying to figure out where I am, while being attacked constantly, possibly dying, trying to navigate to a bag without gps, etc etc etc.
 

Xeen

Member
Finding your bag is the easiest navigation task you will have with the death marker working from any distance within the zone. Second to that is locating a party member that is in-range. The only complication to those is when 3D and pathing become an issue. Open world (basically 2D pathing options) is super easy, lost in the twisting tunnels of CV, maybe not so much.

If you give me a chance, I would be happy to team up with you and try to better share what I learned so far about navigating.

Btw, Redshore and DFS/other dungeons are special cases at the moment since they have no maps. If I am not mistaken, RS is intended to have a map, just not out yet.
With practice, you can sense your direction within a few seconds like after being disoriented from a battle/fleeing for your life, etc. or keep track of it mentally on the fly while focused solely on travelling.

There is also the issue with the skybox turning backwards, which results in 'Nupiter' being 'half-lit low' instead of 'half-lit high' in the middle of the night, which reduces visibility, especially when cliffs, trees, or other obstacles are nearby because the visible portion is at a lower viewing angle. Clouds can hide it to. I'm expecting the rotation will be fixed in today's update or next week. Note: Part of this is speculation on my behalf as to how things will work once it is fixed.
 

RazorBrains

Well-Known Member
^ This is a good idea: a Bandit would = Level 1; Bandit Squad Leader = level 3; Bandit Sub-Chieftain = level 5; Bandit Chieftain = level 7, etc. (insert any naming system you prefer. But just name them differentially and use higher level numbers. KISS)

Think you missed the point here. If only levels matter then how do you scale content for groups at similar levels? In some games group content is in Instances where 4-5 people are needed to kill mobs at the level. These mobs usually have higher XP/Health/Rewards ...

If only levels matter scaled to a solo player, then mobs will be weak groups. Where is the group content? Large groups need more than just higher levels otherwise they would just slice right through the mob. Its a different type of balancing.

What you are not realizing is if a ^ = a level 1 then a ^^^ would probably be a level 8 mob or higher solo and need to exclude the con system. Your scaling method would require a completely different balancing technique.

The game has this system already. Why should they completely change their system to one that isn't even common in MMO's. Pretty much every MMO has Rare, Elite, Boss mobs that have high stats at level. I think you are thinking single player games, but even most of those have Rare/Elite/Bosses with different health pools.

I think you are missing the difference of group content vs solo content.
 

RazorBrains

Well-Known Member
We will just have to agree, to disagree on this. Me and others who don't like the current map system, will simply have to see if ya'll change it enough to be tolerable or not <shrug>. I'm ok with a Bit of difficulty, what I simply don't have time for, is spending 30 minutes trying to figure out where I am, while being attacked constantly, possibly dying, trying to navigate to a bag without gps, etc etc etc.

Yes I agree with you on this, it is what I hear as well. Its a hill they seem to wish to die on, thinking this makes them old school. Unfortunately it will cost them a lot of players and wont gain them many at all. I think they will change it eventually, mainly when the real player reviews start to come in overwhelming. However who knows, I seen a bunch of games die defending some obscure system nobody even cares about or wants.

Some people think they can educate the world of MMO gamers on some very unintuitive system and can change peoples mind on this. What they don't understand is players want something that is intuitive and is at least similar to something they are used to. The farther they are from that system the more people are going to complain or not play. I think if an indie dev team is going to buck the entire system, then the system they are replacing it with should be better than the general system. At the very least it should be similar enough to figure out without reading someone's posts.

Like:
1. Areas of the world are nice looking, great topography and interesting to explore.
2. Enjoy that it's hard and leveling is a challenge. Enjoy that you have to put a lot of effort in, if you want to solo it.
3. Enjoy that you have to work for particular items and that it's all not just Handed to you, like some games now do.

I think you hit the nail on the head here with these. I would add one more,
4. Grouping with Crowd Control mechanics required

This is where the game shines, they should be leaning into these areas and focusing on making their game better for players that want these 4 things. This is what makes the game different then other MMO's, its a rare niche they have. All these other "difficulty mechanics" they keep talking about where people have to waste time running around are just unnecessary time wasters that will turn off the playerbase.
 

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
What's wrong with reading shadows (does not have to be a tree, a signpost or even your own shadow works)?! Ok so not everyone has the knack for navigation. There are multiple ways to do it. I tried to be helpful.

'No compass' annoyed the hell out of me too for awhile, but I figured out ways to do without. Thankfully, the game seems to be intentionally designed to allow for this.
You are overcomplicating things and everyone is overlooking the obvious. I gave everyone a compass. It's just not the compass you expect.
 

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
Yes I agree with you on this, it is what I hear as well. Its a hill they seem to wish to die on, thinking this makes them old school. Unfortunately it will cost them a lot of players and wont gain them many at all. I think they will change it eventually, mainly when the real player reviews start to come in overwhelming. However who knows, I seen a bunch of games die defending some obscure system nobody even cares about or wants.

Some people think they can educate the world of MMO gamers on some very unintuitive system and can change peoples mind on this. What they don't understand is players want something that is intuitive and is at least similar to something they are used to. The farther they are from that system the more people are going to complain or not play. I think if an indie dev team is going to buck the entire system, then the system they are replacing it with should be better than the general system. At the very least it should be similar enough to figure out without reading someone's posts.
I feel as though our reasoning for not including a GPS map has been very clear. We are not trying to buck the entire system. It's not because we think it makes us "old school"; we could care less about that. The maps you have now are the compromise we arrived at between having no maps at all (the initial plan), and a gps map (player expectation). Even if we wanted to add a GPS map to the game (which we do not) it likely wouldn't happen due to a lack of engineering time.

This is where the game shines, they should be leaning into these areas and focusing on making their game better for players that want these 4 things. This is what makes the game different then other MMO's, its a rare niche they have. All these other "difficulty mechanics" they keep talking about where people have to waste time running around are just unnecessary time wasters that will turn off the playerbase.
Things take time. You make it sound like we have our heads in the sand and aren't working on improving things. I personally think that our history of being willing to make changes shows that this is not the case.
 

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
^ This is a good idea: a Bandit would = Level 1; Bandit Squad Leader = level 3; Bandit Sub-Chieftain = level 5; Bandit Chieftain = level 7, etc. (insert any naming system you prefer. But just name them differentially and use higher level numbers. KISS)
I think you are conflating levels with difficulty here. Our "con" system is comprised of TWO variables:
  1. the COLOR of the chevrons indicates the level difference between YOU and the TARGET (this varies from player to player depending on their level)
  2. the NUMBER of chevrons indicates the intended group size the mob was designed for. 1^ = solo, 2^ = small group (2-3), 3^+ = full group. More chevrons means more hit points, more armor class, more overall difficulty and coordination required to take the npc down. They also yield a greater experience reward and have better loot tables.
We will just have to agree, to disagree on this. Me and others who don't like the current map system, will simply have to see if ya'll change it enough to be tolerable or not <shrug>. I'm ok with a Bit of difficulty, what I simply don't have time for, is spending 30 minutes trying to figure out where I am, while being attacked constantly, possibly dying, trying to navigate to a bag without gps, etc etc etc.
We have some additional minor changes in store for the map this week that should help you orient yourself on the map. In regards to finding your bag: when you are missing your bag an arrow is added to the UI on your nameplate's portrait which points directly to your bag if you are in the appropriate zone.
 

Nfab35

Well-Known Member
You are overcomplicating things and everyone is overlooking the obvious. I gave everyone a compass. It's just not the compass you expect.
It's not difficult once you learn the surroundings and use certain landmarks etc to know where you're at and where to go.

I think for to long games have catered to the easy hand holding route to long and people have become used to not putting in any effort.

I don't see this being a feature turning a majority of people away.
 

RazorBrains

Well-Known Member
It's not difficult once you learn the surroundings and use certain landmarks etc to know where you're at and where to go.

I think for to long games have catered to the easy hand holding route to long and people have become used to not putting in any effort.

I don't see this being a feature turning a majority of people away.

This one feature may not be the only thing the turns people away, but it will be weighed into peoples decision. Enough bad design decisions will stack up and it becomes a factor. Everyone has a different list of things they hate. The idea is to remove barriers that impact peoples fun. Players have a limited time to play and want to enjoy that time, how many are saying wow geez this is great I cant wait to navigate by a planet?

The real question is how many people are going to stay because of planet or landmark navigation? I don't think I have ever heard someone say that is something they want as one of the top 10 things of an mmo. In fact I don't even think anyone has even put it on a list that I know of until this game.

Lets look at the other side. Not being able to find their corpse so they have to forfeit bag? Not being able to find their friends? Not being able to get to a safe spot before they log? Yeah these will definitely be causing complaints from players and its not going to be pretty.
 

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
Lets look at the other side. Not being able to find their corpse so they have to forfeit bag? Not being able to find their friends? Not being able to get to a safe spot before they log? Yeah these will definitely be causing complaints from players and its not going to be pretty.
Are people having issues finding their bag? You get an arrow that points you to the exact location and the backpack itself has a "sky beam" like VFX attached pointing it out to you from a distance. I'm not sure how we can make it any easier to find your back other than removing the mechanic entirely.

And regarding finding your group mates nearly the same thing applies. Once you are within 300m of your group (this is a limitation based off of area of interests, can't expand that without significantly increasing the network load on the server) you get an arrow that points you straight to them.
 

RazorBrains

Well-Known Member
Are people having issues finding their bag? You get an arrow that points you to the exact location and the backpack itself has a "sky beam" like VFX attached pointing it out to you from a distance. I'm not sure how we can make it any easier to find your back other than removing the mechanic entirely.

And regarding finding your group mates nearly the same thing applies. Once you are within 300m of your group (this is a limitation based off of area of interests, can't expand that without significantly increasing the network load on the server) you get an arrow that points you straight to them.
As far as bag goes, yeah probably not a major problem in most situations, although the Central Veins is very complex for a newb dungeon. Your bag compass is pretty much worthless there. Your bag sky beam was lowered to be hard to see again, although I think it can be worked out in most cases.

Not knowing where you are on the map however makes it harder to tell where you died and how to sneak in and get to it. With the mob changes not sure how big of a problem this still is but it definitely was a factor.

In regards to not finding the group, yeah well this is a problem all the time. People always getting turned around and cant find their way.

Heck just the other day, I had someone leading me thru the gorge or redwood zone or whatever its called, who said "they had a decent idea how to navigate the zone", trying to find the Dryfoot entrance, we spent about 45 minutes running around because he missed the entrance spot and backtracked half the zone. He ended up logging without finding the Dryfoot exit, which I ended up finding not long after. Why did this happen? Partly because no map, and partly because the planet was behind clouds making it hard to navigate. So if this is happening to us, yeah its definitely happening to others. Was I having fun during this 45 min? Nope complete waste of time to me. If I had an option to recall, I would have just used it.
 

Xeen

Member
partly because the planet was behind clouds making it hard to navigate
This is exactly why I have explored multiple methods of navigation. If you only rely on one thing, and that thing is unavailable, you are screwed. I can get really close to anywhere I want in RS from anywhere without a map or compass, just using directions and approximate location.

Shadows are the most reliable way to navigate without having to take the time to find the planet or be bothered by LOS obstructions. Obviously no usable shadows at night. One other trick that works in RS is to look for the snow-capped peaks in the distant background. This is SOUTH across the water, and you can navigate using this knowledge + a 'shark sniffing' approach to better approximate due south by splitting the difference in position of the peaks, etc. (its a bit more complicated to explain in words than it is to do)
 

GeneralK

Member
As far as bag goes, yeah probably not a major problem in most situations, although the Central Veins is very complex for a newb dungeon. Your bag compass is pretty much worthless there. Your bag sky beam was lowered to be hard to see again, although I think it can be worked out in most cases.

Not knowing where you are on the map however makes it harder to tell where you died and how to sneak in and get to it. With the mob changes not sure how big of a problem this still is but it definitely was a factor.

In regards to not finding the group, yeah well this is a problem all the time. People always getting turned around and cant find their way.

Heck just the other day, I had someone leading me thru the gorge or redwood zone or whatever its called, who said "they had a decent idea how to navigate the zone", trying to find the Dryfoot entrance, we spent about 45 minutes running around because he missed the entrance spot and backtracked half the zone. He ended up logging without finding the Dryfoot exit, which I ended up finding not long after. Why did this happen? Partly because no map, and partly because the planet was behind clouds making it hard to navigate. So if this is happening to us, yeah its definitely happening to others. Was I having fun during this 45 min? Nope complete waste of time to me. If I had an option to recall, I would have just used it.


Why don't you want to learn the zones? Why should a new player instantly know everything everywhere without effort? Why is that More fun? Why is not fun to learn the world?

I feel like these concerns are all modern MMO hand holding issues. Perhaps if people actually give it a chance they would see the value in making the game feel more like a virtual world instead of an action RPG of non-stop fighting. Complaining that you couldn't find a zone-line the first time you tried because it wasted your time seems... like you want to play something on rails.

Old school MMOs felt way larger than they actually were due to these navigation and lack of fast travel. There's that saying about the journey and not just the destination... If I don't have to know anything or work for anything to get some place special, then it's not special. The feeling of accomplishment is diminished if everyone can easily do every dungeon on GPS.

I WANT to group with people that have no idea and say hey let's go wander around and try to find that thing lol. That IS what I'm looking for in an MMO. Then I want to become the person that knows the twists and turns of the dungeon and is valuable as a group leader / puller. This makes memories, reputation, community. All things that modern MMOs lack.

Will the action and instanced modern crowd all like it? Probably not.

If the argument is that we need as many of those players as possible to succeed, then shouldn't we add instances and dungeon finder too because they will complain about that?
 

RazorBrains

Well-Known Member
This is exactly why I have explored multiple methods of navigation. If you only rely on one thing, and that thing is unavailable, you are screwed. I can get really close to anywhere I want in RS from anywhere without a map or compass, just using directions and approximate location.

Shadows are the most reliable way to navigate without having to take the time to find the planet or be bothered by LOS obstructions. Obviously no usable shadows at night. One other trick that works in RS is to look for the snow-capped peaks in the distant background. This is SOUTH across the water, and you can navigate using this knowledge + a 'shark sniffing' approach to better approximate due south by splitting the difference in position of the peaks, etc. (its a bit more complicated to explain in words than it is to do)
Not sure if you are aware, but the world doesn't revolve around you and what you do. It matters to others what they do and what they are doing. You think I am the only person that will have this problem? When people have issues like this they will complain. Their complaint will have nothing to do with what you are doing. You being happy about the system will not make them happy about the system. No matter how well you know a zone, is not going to make them feel better about the situation.
 
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