BETA TEST September 21st; what's new?

[Undone]

I feel that if you're re-baking the strategy, then it should make sense in it's new format - letting go of the old (because it didn't work as intended). If it's something that simply will not change, and weaponsmithing is the only profession that gets broken into two pieces, then it just is what it is. I still always think that part will be a strange/broken decision that feels incongruent with the other break-outs.

The initial goal with crafting was to eventually make our way to specializations. In other words: that is where we were always headed. So I don't think of it as a "re-baking" but rather a "cutting out the middle man".

 

[Undone]

With what you explain in mind, is it the same idea for harvesting, I.E if you want to be a master of harvesting take all three?
Will harvesting and crafting remain shared as "trade skills" for a total of three?

Yes. We feel that provides a more interesting "choice" for most players. But as you mentioned, those who don't mind alt-ing will likely take gathering on their main and crafting on their alts.

I guess my concern here, is if you want to for example make all weapons - then you can't harvest at all. So it makes them extremely hard to level unless you have a harvester alt or buy everything from players. I can't foresee how easy or difficult the latter would be as there is currently no auction house and this is not yet a 100% live service in order to fully gauge how the economy will work.

The intended design has always been some form of inter-dependency similar to adventuring. However, we fully recognize that this is heavily dependent on the population which is one of the primary reasons we allowed for a third profession in the first place (original design was 2).

The other side of the spectrum is allowing everyone to do every crafting profession. While I am sure many would prefer this approach our primary concern here is that allowing one person to do everything in the crafting sphere on a single character severely diminishes any need for social interaction - which is kind of the whole point of our game in the first place. And that's not to mention the other side effects like negatively impacting the reward cycle in the adventuring sphere.

 

[Azureblaze]

Yes. We feel that provides a more interesting "choice" for most players. But as you mentioned, those who don't mind alt-ing will likely take gathering on their main and crafting on their alts.


The intended design has always been some form of inter-dependency similar to adventuring. However, we fully recognize that this is heavily dependent on the population which is one of the primary reasons we allowed for a third profession in the first place (original design was 2).

The other side of the spectrum is allowing everyone to do every crafting profession. While I am sure many would prefer this approach our primary concern here is that allowing one person to do everything in the crafting sphere on a single character severely diminishes any need for social interaction - which is kind of the whole point of our game in the first place. And that's not to mention the other side effects like negatively impacting the reward cycle in the adventuring sphere.

Have you thought about making harvesting separate? I.E. allow the player to get 1,2 or all of them, same progression (level 6, level 12) for 2nd, 3rd? -- But, "unlink" it from crafting - so this would be it's own thing? You could even expand upon only three harvesting professions with this kind of implementation in the future - to more mirror how crafting is now implemented. Depending on what's allowed and the amount of harvesting profession, this could also prevent an "All-harvester" character, similar to how it's impossible to make an "All-crafter" character now.

Crafting itself will still be limited if you separate harvesting, as only three will still be allowed, but at least players could get some materials needed for the three crafts they choose.

Alternatively, you said you changed it to allow 3 - with these crafting changes I think it makes more since to allow 4 if crafting/harvesting remain linked. But just my opinion. This way someone can get 2 harvesting 2 crafting, or 1 harvesting 3 crafting, etc. This way an armor or weapon "specialist" could at least get some materials, and trade for other materials they need - this will still allow for interaction as there is not going to be a way to make everything you may need in general.

With above being said, I think it's good to continue to test things out as they are now. Then maybe down the road considering making some changes if needed in the future, which is the whole idea of testing!!

Thank you for sharing your thoughts here and also simply not throwing crafting away completely (I know that was probably tempting).

At the end of the day, I'll take what I can get as far as crafting goes!

 

[Undone]

Have you thought about making harvesting separate? I.E. allow the player to get 1,2 or all of them, same progression (level 6, level 12) for 2nd, 3rd? -- But, "unlink" it from crafting - so this would be it's own thing? You could even expand upon only three harvesting professions with this kind of implementation in the future - to more mirror how crafting is now implemented. Depending on what's allowed and the amount of harvesting profession, this could also prevent an "All-harvester" character, similar to how it's impossible to make an "All-crafter" character now.

Yes, but all that would do is just push towards allowing everyone to do everything - which as we already touched on above.

We also feel as though this choice is a bit more interesting and provides some flexibility to the player. As an example if you take 2x gathering 1x crafting you are likely making the decision to be self sufficient in a single craft. Whereas if you take 2x crafting and 1x gathering you may be less self sufficient in 2 different crafts as you would need supplemental help (via social interactions/purchasing) to be able to make everything. Or if you go the dedicated approach of 3x crafting you will need all the help you can get.

None of this addresses the argument that players are just going to "get around these limitations" via crafting alts. If I had it my way we would limit you to a single character slot. Although even then, people would just purchase a second account and the result would be the same. However, the point of these limits is not to prevent a player from doing it in the first place. These limitations are in place to disincentivize players from being fully self sufficient and encourage trade/barter/engagement with the community.

In other words: if we made it easy to be self sufficient then then there is no choice - you would simply do it. With these disincentives in place players at least have to put some thought into how they want to approach crafting/gathering on each of their characters and how they want to spend/split their time.

 

[Battlestorm]

The initial goal with crafting was to eventually make our way to specializations. In other words: that is where we were always headed. So I don't think of it as a "re-baking" but rather a "cutting out the middle man".

I'm sensing a hard "no" on merging the weaponsmithing professions. With all the other wonderful changes the EA team has made recently, I have nothing but love - but I'll never let it go...never.

Well, that and the friggin' bears...now these both will haunt me.

 

[Undone]

I'm sensing a hard "no" on merging the weaponsmithing professions.

Oh don't mistake my words for a hard "no" by any means. I was just saying that we were always trying to get to crafting "specs" and initially thought that having a broader more general role was the way to start and then narrow the focus. But instead we just threw out the general role and now have the more narrowly focused crafting specs we always intended. I guess I'm just asking that you all give it a chance and see how it plays out over the next week or so.

And to reiterate - I'm not taking a hardline stance on this I just wanted to share some of our perspectives on the why things were broken up they way they were.

 

[Battlestorm]

Yes, but all that would do is just push towards allowing everyone to do everything - which as we already touched on above.

I actually love having one character that, if enough time is put in, can do it all. Sure, that makes me a one-man show, sure that's 1,000% against the grain of this game. Just expressing more of my own BS.

We also feel as though this choice is a bit more interesting and provides some flexibility to the player. As an example if you take 2x gathering 1x crafting you are likely making the decision to be self sufficient in a single craft. Whereas if you take 2x crafting and 1x gathering you may be less self sufficient in 2 different crafts as you would need supplemental help (via social interactions/purchasing) to be able to make everything. Or if you go the dedicated approach of 3x crafting you will need all the help you can get.

It might be helpful, later, if a player understands - through some sort of in-game input - what 2x harvesting professions are needed to be self-sufficient in a single crafting profession BEFORE it's confirmed/selected. Had I known, I would have picked up 2x harvesting professions to start and then bumped into a crafting profession.

None of this addresses the argument that players are just going to "get around these limitations" via crafting alts. If I had it my way we would limit you to a single character slot. Although even then, people would just purchase a second account and the result would be the same. However, the point of these limits is not to prevent a player from doing it in the first place. These limitations are in place to disincentivize players from being fully self sufficient and encourage trade/barter/engagement with the community.

Right, my wife and I had just worked out the previous system before the update. We had the crafting thing locked down. Now...we'll both be begging. I think what the EA team has done is the right thing to do, even if it bites our little enterprise in the rear.

In other words: if we made it easy to be self sufficient then then there is no choice - you would simply do it. With these disincentives in place players at least have to put some thought into how they want to approach crafting/gathering on each of their characters and how they want to spend/split their time.

Yes. Yes I would. Again, those with more time will be far more independent, versatile, and profitable than I will be - but that'll be the math either way.

Important point: I've made it all the way in life and have never seen the word disincentives used in non-legal jargon. Well done.

 

[Battlestorm]

Oh don't mistake my words for a hard "no" by any means.

 

[Jerri]

The crafting professions are great, I love the rework. It means no one person can do everything. You have to work with others to get your materials, but that's what an mmo should be about

 

[Superbitsandbob]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I wanted to share some of our thought process on why things were split up in the way that they were.

Originally these were all meant to be "specs" broken off from the three main crafting professions of Outfitter (inner, light, heavy), Weaponsmith (light, heavy, ranged), and Provisioner (food, potions, misc. stuffs). But after a bit of internal discussion we found that specs were not going to work out as we had initially planned due to some differences with how experience works for crafting vs. adventuring. The most straight forward solution was to simply get rid of the base professions and make the planned specs the base professions. Our thought process was that given that each character could take up to 3 trade skills, if the player wanted to truly "master" a given trade (i.e. be able to make all weapons) then they would need to take all three of the appropriate professions (i.e. light weapons, heavy weapons, ranged weapons).

The only exception to this was that the food & potion "specs" were combined because it felt lacking compared to the other professions. Which leads me to our other consideration: the number of recipes each profession has. As it stands they are roughly even when it comes to the number of different things each can make. Consolidating professions even further would create a large imbalance in the number of recipes one profession has when compared with the others.

I recognize that this approach is a bit different from what you have come to expect from other MMOs - but we would love to hear your thoughts coming at it with the above perspective in mind.

What are your contingencies for the unavailability of resources for crafting, if/when they are not available when players require them? If, for example, you want to master all weapons as you suggest, how will you make sure resources are available for that player that wants to do that when they are playing?

This is if there is not a high enough population providing these resources across varying time zones when people play.

Also, how to you plan to tackle an issue where the resource/material economy is dominated by a very small number of hardcore 24/7 players because there are not enough players gathering and selling materials or making parts required for crafting? This has been an issue in other indie MMO's I have played although in those games you at least had the opportunity to gather everything yourself assuming you were happy to grind all the skills.

Thanks.

 

[RazorBrains]

I really have a hard time understanding these crafting changes. Looking at this rationally. If you divide people into 3 groups (probably can be more, but generalizing here)

1) People that love crafting/harvesting, would rather craft than do other things if given a choice.

2) People that are part-time crafters/harvesting, dabblers of crafting, or just craft/harvest for money during downtime.

3) People that hate crafting/harvesting, will only do this if they stumble on to nodes while adventuring or if required to do so because of money or unavailable items that effect there other gameplay. Overall these people would rather be doing something else.

So which of these groups of people are you appealing to?

Group 1 loves crafting and wants to do all the crafting content possible, yet only gets to experience 25% of the crafting/harvesting content.
Group 3 Probably will be neutral to this change.
Group 3 wont care because crafting/harvesting doesn't even matter to them.

Lets flip this for group 3, lets say you did the same thing for dungeons. Based on your chosen class you can only go into 25% of the dungeons. We made this really cool content, but you can only dream about it, we know you want to do it, but we are going to taunt you with it by forcing you to choose which part of the fun content you want to do. You can do as much of the unfun content as you want, but are not allowed to do all the stuff you enjoy, you have to choose.

So unless you are trying to get crafters to purchase multiple accounts and make multiple characters to experience the content, its really hard to see how this even makes sense.

The only way I could possibly see this system working, is if each line was so content heavy and deep, that a dedicated crafter could only do one/two line(s) due to time. You want them to distinguish themselves in just 1 area, but this content better be so good that it overcomes people getting upset they cannot do the other content. Additionally you will need to have a thriving economy, which means a good way to trade goods.

 

[Battlestorm]

I really have a hard time understanding these crafting changes. Looking at this rationally. If you divide people into 3 groups (probably can be more, but generalizing here)

1) People that love crafting/harvesting, would rather craft than do other things if given a choice.

2) People that are part-time crafters/harvesting, dabblers of crafting, or just craft/harvest for money during downtime.

3) People that hate crafting/harvesting, will only do this if they stumble on to nodes while adventuring or if required to do so because of money or unavailable items that effect there other gameplay. Overall these people would rather be doing something else.

So which of these groups of people are you appealing to?

Group 1 loves crafting and wants to do all the crafting content possible, yet only gets to experience 25% of the crafting/harvesting content.
Group 3 Probably will be neutral to this change.
Group 3 wont care because crafting/harvesting doesn't even matter to them.

Lets flip this for group 3, lets say you did the same thing for dungeons. Based on your chosen class you can only go into 25% of the dungeons. We made this really cool content, but you can only dream about it, we know you want to do it, but we are going to taunt you with it by forcing you to choose which part of the fun content you want to do. You can do as much of the unfun content as you want, but are not allowed to do all the stuff you enjoy, you have to choose.

So unless you are trying to get crafters to purchase multiple accounts and make multiple characters to experience the content, its really hard to see how this even makes sense.

The only way I could possibly see this system working, is if each line was so content heavy and deep, that a dedicated crafter could only do one/two line(s) due to time. You want them to distinguish themselves in just 1 area, but this content better be so good that it overcomes people getting upset they cannot do the other content. Additionally you will need to have a thriving economy, which means a good way to trade goods.

I had a similar experience with these changes. I logged in - initially excited - ditched my 2x crafting professions, and then went to pick up 2x new ones. I quickly did the math and thought to myself, "the more changes that are implemented, even if I believe in them (conceptually), the more I'm edged out and unable to play." It's not a great feeling. I think the crafting changes make sense, logically, but now I would need 4x characters to be independent (not the point of the game). Either that, or my wife and I would need to run alts (probably still not the point). The truth is that we both feel that with our busy lives we're just not going to be able to play, and that's okay, it is what it is - or we'd just have to both only be 100% harvesters.

With these changes it seems even more likely that those with the time will get even more powerful/capable, and see the world as much as they want. Unfortunately, busy folk like myself are further pushed out of reach. This mechanic may be the niche; but when a team carves out a specific space for a game, it sometimes moves out of reasonable bounds for some.

I know there's more to it than crafting; we're not supposed to be independent...and, again, I agree with that to a certain extent. Your logic actually works for the game as a whole though. If you pick one of the 9 subclasses, then really you've chosen the way in which you'll be dependent on others. Choose support, you need tank and DPS to experience the truly good areas of the game. Crafting is now the same - though it seems a little different w/ harvesting taking up the crafting profession slots.

In any event, if you want the benefits of a dungeon crawl, you'll need a few other people whose skills you can't use, abilities you don't have, to get to the same end-goal. You supply a limited role in adventuring and there are play styles, tactics, and abilities that must be supplied by others...now the same goest for crafting/harvesting. For better or worse, with the exception of having two weaponsmithing professions, it seems more polished this way to me - even if more agonizingly distant.

 

[AdricLives]

Thanks, I think this is a good discussion, I am still looking at the recipe balance and how that relates to the current split.

While there can always be contingencies for situations which may or even will eventually arise, I don't think the initial design should be focused on this. Like if the original design of EQ included mercs because they were addressing the eventuality of players being unable to find groups. If there's a lack of something demand is created and equilibrium can be met by a playerbase. And if there is a lack of playerbase to address the demand then alts can fill much of this. I'm not sure what concerns there are of certain resources etc. being locked down by a few hardcore groups, our resources are abundant and spawns are randomly selected making locking them down seemingly difficult. What we are suggesting is that you can, with effort, be self-sufficient within a segment of a single crafting profession, with some overlap with other players or alts for complete coverage of your profession.

It is important to remember that we do not as it stands have interdependence between crafting professions, ONLY with harvesting professions. Of which there are only 3 and have very good coverage across adventurers, especially those who aren't directly interested in taking a crafting profession. This is fairly important since it means a single player can alone feed resources into every crafting profession with no content locked at all. But yes there is not 100% coverage for a single account to do so, but its ~80% which feels pretty good for balancing what you can potentially do on your own vs what even a single other player might enable you to do.

 

[Superbitsandbob]

We are in a very different time to those classic MMO's. There aren't really any secrets anymore as MMO's, more often than not now, are thoroughly played by the time they get a proper release. I think because of this, the current crafting changes are a massive win for veterans with grinds to burn but two fingers to new players or more casual players. Similar to how it worked with SOTA.

A new player coming into the game has a lot of catching up to do and by the time they get it, the economy, on a small population game like this, could be set in stone by players who knew exactly what they were doing. There may not even be much of an economy if you come in 6 months down the line and the influx of new players is small. You will essentially be forced to make (more) alts now. If there is a reasonably healthy new player influx at all times, then they could bounce off of each other for resources. The likely scenario here is that you have a small, core group of veteran players at the top and a trickle of new players coming into the game and finding it hard to get what they need to craft. Maybe there will be a good number of high-level players going around mining low level ore's and making low level items to sell to new players coming in to keep things going? Seems unlikely.

I can't help but feel with how these mechanics are being implemented, that the game is trying to capture something in the social sphere that was maybe not ever really there? It's only something that we conjured up as some classic ideal in our heads, much like a lack of fast travel and teleportation, that was never really there. You could have a character in UO for example that could be focused on trade skills and be self-sufficient. On P99 you can learn all but the racial trade skills up to 200. In a newer indie MMO from some old school devs you can learn all the trade skills and that game has a marketplace that always has a working economy. At least whenever I have needed to buy a resource it has been available. That game has a larger population though currently. Letting the player do everything doesn't seem to be an issue in many MMO's from an economy standpoint. Not sure why it would be here.

EQ's, unsurprisingly, is a good example. You can learn everything but can only take one skill past the 200 mark to give you that specialisation.

I just hope this game doesn't end up another indie MMO where a small number of entrenched, veteran players who can afford either the time or the money to be self-sufficient are all that is left of a regular player base. When we think about how great it is to get together and trade items, have a flagon and make new friends it sounds amazing on paper. What's the reality though. That should be the most important aspect for any game.

MMO players just don't stick around like they used to as well. Seeing how it goes and adjusting later is often too late.

 

[AdricLives]

finding it hard to get what they need to craft

I assume what you mean, is that they find it hard to craft everything by themselves? Because this isn't the goal in the first place, for a single player to be able to craft everything. Because you can, without alts, self-sustain a craft to max level with no other players. If you came into the game a year late and wanted to be a tinkerer you could without any help from anyone else. As is the case of being a Warlord without anyone else and progress your character adventuring, harvesting and crafting solo to max level. This is not prevented.

You could have a character in UO for example that could be focused on trade skills and be self-sufficient.

Our system is not so different. UO locked you to a specific number of skills and prevented you from having a single character who could do everything. If you wanted to actually be self-sufficient for ALL trades you had to have a handful of alts and a house.

At least whenever I have needed to buy a resource it has been available.

But is this because everyone can do everything or is this because it's made easier with an auction house? I suspect it is more the latter.

 

[Superbitsandbob]

I assume what you mean, is that they find it hard to craft everything by themselves? Because this isn't the goal in the first place, for a single player to be able to craft everything. Because you can, without alts, self-sustain a craft to max level with no other players. If you came into the game a year late and wanted to be a tinkerer you could without any help from anyone else. As is the case of being a Warlord without anyone else and progress your character adventuring, harvesting and crafting solo to max level. This is not prevented.



Our system is not so different. UO locked you to a specific number of skills and prevented you from having a single character who could do everything. If you wanted to actually be self-sufficient for ALL trades you had to have a handful of alts and a house.



But is this because everyone can do everything or is this because it's made easier with an auction house? I suspect it is more the latter.

No I mean the game needs a certain population amount if you are relying on resources from other players. If, when I log in to play, there are not enough players around to fulfil my needs for any resources I need, I am left with using alts, which defeats the purpose of what you say you are trying to do if you want people to interact and trade for things. If I play during off peak times or at quieter times, what do I do if I need metal bars or leather straps or whatever to master the weapon crafting skills, as suggested earlier in the thread, but there is no one on to supply that. It's hard to tell at this point of course what the population will be but when I log in it struggles to get into double digits sometimes.

UO gave you 700 skill points or so I think which was more than enough to be able to gather the resources you need and master crafts. With those points I could take lumberjack, mining, tailoring, weaponsmith, bowyer/fletcher, blacksmith and carpenter. You could even drop a couple of those skills if you didn't want to make bows for example and pick up some combat skills and be very self-sufficient.

An auction house helps that of course but the main point is that many MMO's allow the learning of all gathering and crafting skills and still have an economy for the resources. It makes sense in a low population game so people who enjoy crafting and gathering are not bottlenecked by the population. Being a one-man crafting/gathering band doesn't damage an in-game economy because in general not everyone wants to learn everything or even craft and gather at all, so there are always players around who want to buy things from other players. I am playing a number of MMO's at the moment that prove this.

My experience of your game is that the people who want to do it all will anyway through alts. In which case, what's the point of limits in the first place? Players are already working out the best alt setup to do everything themselves.

Maybe, as has been suggested many times, this game is just not for me because of when I play and my time zone. The fact is that it is far too late after you have bought the game and paid a couple of months subscription to find out you don't play at the correct time because of population.

 

[RazorBrains]

Interesting you bring up UO crafting/economy

I think UO had the gold standard for a functioning economy.

Here are some key points that UO had.

1) As mentioned already you could put all crafting skills on 1 char, and harvesting on another
2) Easy way to buy/sell goods via player vendors
3) As mentioned you had housing which allowed unlimited storage
4) Easy movement to buy/sell/trade goods with instant portals
5) Allowed up to 5 characters per account

So with above, how does it effect economy

1) As shown allowing crafting on 1 char doesn't hurt an economy
2) Need a place to sell/buy goods like vendors or auction house
3) Storage, yep crafters need a place to hold finished and unfinished items
4) Need a central location that has easy access to quickly buy/sell goods. Since this game doesn't have instant portals, then you will at least need a hub/auction house or large vendor market.
5) If you are going to limit the number of crafts skill lines to a character, then you need to allow people to make enough characters to craft all the lines. People that like crafting want to craft, its their game loop, you shouldn't stop them from having fun.

 

[RazorBrains]

I think one of the problems I see, is the idea most everyone wants to craft/harvest. The only reason a lot of people are crafting now, is because there is zero economy in this game. If there was a functioning economy, than you would have more buyers than sellers.

Harvesting is a little different, because people generally do that to make money. If harvesting doesn't bring much money, then much fewer people would do that, players will gravitate to whatever profession is the most profitable. There is also a segment of population that doesn't even care about money, and will harvest every node from A to B just because its there.

What I am getting at, is there are different playstyles that need to be looked at, and putting everyone in the crafting box thinking every player will equally want to craft a line is misjudging the player base. You cant just spread this equally all out through the community. People will do what they think is fun, and concentrate on that. This applies to all things in a game, from dungeons, to exploring, quests whatever.

It seems you are just putting these changes in, thinking the player base as a whole will like it. But what part of the player base that likes crafting but only wants to craft in a very limited line. Some people will deal with it I suppose, but for what purpose is this limit being imposed? Who thinks this is a good idea, and if they do for what reason do they like it? Is seems a lose/lose to me.

 

[AdricLives]

Well no honestly, I fully expected all players to dislike the change at least initially. Because its a reduction in character capabilities, relative to prior gameplay. At least for me personally the goals are multi-faceted and not focused primarily on economy, but it is part of it. It is a good question, what do players like about crafting and why would creating limited lines of goods be more enjoyable in some way. I think because our crafting is very focused on the end product that large quantities of players being able to make the same items means your craft, your items, are largely worthless to the population generally. And this is not just an economic sense of worth, but as in your efforts have no feelings of pride or accomplishment if you cannot offer anything unique in any way. Limitations to alts and their ability to craft to higher levels all relate to this as well. Knowing a provisioner or your guild having a tinkerer, are things that I want to make someone feel good, and not just part of your standard character progression that fills out bis slots. Some players might not care and still want to be the one-man-band, that's fine I'm just putting some perspective on why I advocate for more specialized player crafting over generalist crafting playstyles.

I don't disagree that the economy could be fine (or at least the same) with opening up crafts or harvesting skills. And of course having more systems to facilitate the movement of resources between players I also agree would be good. I think all great points.

 

[Xavure]

I think because our crafting is very focused on the end product that large quantities of players being able to make the same items means your craft, your items, are largely worthless to the population generally. And this is not just an economic sense of worth, but as in your efforts have no feelings of pride or accomplishment if you cannot offer anything unique in any way

I understand what you want to achieve there, but as it is, the crafting system does not give you that sense of uniqueness, simpy because there's no uniqueness. I mean all the final/end results are the same for every crafter (stats and looks). You cannot Crit, you cannot craft something more exciting than another crafter, because it's all the same for everyone, you cannot craft something unique.

If you really want that sense of uniqueness you'll need:

1- Rare recipe that are extremely hard to come by.
2- % chances of critical craft depending on the level or mats you put in.
3- Legendary items that only crafter can make. (would required unique drops from high end monster but not garanteed)
4- Unique Visual coming from all the crafted gear in general and the better the item, better the visual.
5- Random stats tie with visual