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Reagents

Kaeolin

Well-Known Member
Either you need to eliminate reagents, and just buff the abilities as we level, over reagents need to be more plentiful. All the classes need reagents despite the idea that they can be cast without reagents. I was not able to keep the tank/group healed without reagents. I'd either run out of Stamina, or they just would be getting hit too hard. In a normal group I'd estimate I go through about 200 reagents for just 1 ability (First Aid), and then whatever reagents I use for Reinforce.

This doesn't take into consideration the other classes who also use reagents. We farmed mobs for Strikers for at least 2 hours and I don't think they had 200 reagents between them drop. I can only speak to my experience.

Reagents in general each person needs hundreds of them. They aren't plentiful enough in the world and it's not fun to just go farm 1 classes reagents. The only reward for the rest of the group is experience and helping your group mate.

I myself find that I need to farm herbs for a few hours/day just to keep up with grouping in the evening for a few hours.
 

Kittik

Well-Known Member
We farmed for 2 hours and between the two of us strikers we ended up with around 90 reagents. (I wasn't' using/applying reagents while we were fighting, because if I were, I would have netted zero from our work last night)

Also, I joined with a Defender just so I could help him farm reagents. This was boring AF. We were fighting low level bears solely to farm pee. Again about 2 hours of this and I wanted to stab myself in the eye. But I did it to help him. He ended up with about 150 reagents.

I like the idea of reagents, but if they are used, they should be a clear benefit to who is applying them to their abilities and who isn't. Maybe it/they scale exponentially and at higher levels you can really tell they difference. IDK, I'm not there yet. But as it is now, early game use of reagents is a pita without seeing enough of a benefit. And if we have to constantly go farm reagents from mobs that only drop what I need, or what he needs or what person X needs. That is a tragically unfun mechanic.

So again, I see no reason why reagents can't be added to humanoid npc's. AGAIN, I'm not asking that you remove reagents. I like the idea of them. But you could either consolidate the list of them from 20 reagents down to 10, and change the who needs what (some overlapping would be fine, even beneficial because then it would mean more people are getting an opportunity to get what they need from a mob)

Bear
Shoats
Wolves drop pee

Quilback
Fireflies
Shoats drop stingers

Spiders
Fireflies
Toads drop poison
etc...

Having overlap of mobs and overlap of reagents would be a good thing. You don't need so many different reagents. Some classes can use the same one.

Like defenders and strikers could both use pee. etc...

Just food for thought.
 

AdricLives

Administrator
Stormhaven Studios
Either you need to eliminate reagents, and just buff the abilities as we level

Abilities increase with power at the same times you get access to better reagents, all of them do this.

All the classes need reagents despite the idea that they can be cast without reagents

Not true. Current reagent-less ability usage is on-par with old merchant levels of power, which was more than enough to do all appropriate level content.

I was not able to keep the tank/group healed without reagents.

I need more information around this. The game is balanced around non-reagent abilities. If you are fighting reds with fights lasting into the minutes you should be failing regardless. But there's a lot of variables here.

So again, I see no reason why reagents can't be added to humanoid npc's

You just talked about the horribleness of lack of reagents from bears after spending hours to get 150, if you spent hours to get 10 from humanoids you would be even more upset.

20 reagents down to 10,

There are 12 currently.

Having overlap of mobs and overlap of reagents would be a good thing

I agree, there are multiple reasons why this would be good. The reagents are going to get more generalized at some point. While I do like the idea of having like quillback quills specifically, and not just getting "numbing agent", but if multiple things are dropping the same reagent we lose that little bit of flavor (now quillbacks just drop "generic numbing agent") but it's probably an improvement overall to the experience.

Some classes can use the same one.

Not sure what this would solve. If say both strikers and defenders could use irritants then strikers could use provoke basically. We could add class restrictions so there's defender irritants and striker irritants... but that's technically what we have currently just with a slightly different name.


I am getting mixed feedback here though. Kaeolin suggests the game is too difficult without reagents and Kittik says the reagents are not noticeable when used. These two statements appear to be odds with one-another. It sounds like the rate of return on the reagents is too low though, that is definitely something that can be easily addressed.
 

Kaeolin

Well-Known Member
I am getting mixed feedback here though. Kaeolin suggests the game is too difficult without reagents and Kittik says the reagents are not noticeable when used. These two statements appear to be odds with one-another. It sounds like the rate of return on the reagents is too low though, that is definitely something that can be easily addressed.

If you read my other post about reagents and how the impact the skill, Kittik and I are in at least 90% agreement.

With regard to our group. We were all lvl 10-12 fighting mobs that were 1,2 and some 3 chevron white, yellow and some orange. Full group with one member being higher (14). healing for a max of 28 with no reagents wasn't keeping up with how much damage the tank (Lavon) was taking. He was holding agro, so group damage was minimal.

What I'm saying about Reagents, is make them actually be worth having. If the content is designed around no reagents, then I should feel powerful when using them. I don't. I feel like I have to use them in normal content to keep the group alive.
 

Kittik

Well-Known Member
You just talked about the horribleness of lack of reagents from bears after spending hours to get 150, if you spent hours to get 10 from humanoids you would be even more upset.
You completely missed the point here. *IF* reagents are added (as in an additional source) to humaniods, then always having to go back and farm mobs that are only for you won't be as much as a requirement. I've never said I want humaniods to be the only and definitely not best option to get reagents.
 

Kittik

Well-Known Member
Not sure what this would solve. If say both strikers and defenders could use irritants then strikers could use provoke basically. We could add class restrictions so there's defender irritants and striker irritants... but that's technically what we have currently just with a slightly different name.
When did, how or why did a reagent give an ability? What I'm suggesting is instead of requiring reagents of numbing agent and poison for strikers, and irritant and (other one) for defenders. Just allow both classes' abilities to use the same reagent for their abilities. This goes back to what I said up top, reduce the number of reagents in the game from 20 to 10 (or 12 to 6 if we're using real numbers).

Nothing says, except for what you've written, that there have to be different reagents for the different classes. And since you guys wrote that, you can re-write it.

For example:
Enraging Strike - Requires Irritant
Venonous Strike - Requires Irritant

Condensing the reagent list should make writing and future expansion of abilities easier....I would think.
 

Kittik

Well-Known Member
I am getting mixed feedback here though. Kaeolin suggests the game is too difficult without reagents and Kittik says the reagents are not noticeable when used. These two statements appear to be odds with one-another. It sounds like the rate of return on the reagents is too low though, that is definitely something that can be easily addressed.
How is this mixed messages. We are saying the same thing. Kaeolin = game hard with no reagents. Kittik = game hard because reagents are weak.
 

AdricLives

Administrator
Stormhaven Studios
What I'm saying about Reagents, is make them actually be worth having. If the content is designed around no reagents, then I should feel powerful when using them. I don't. I feel like I have to use them in normal content to keep the group alive.

I'm still trying to fully understand the situation. You want reagents to be worth having. So reagents are not currently worth having and you don't feel powerful using them. But you also see them as necessary and worth having for doing normal content. So they just feel necessary and not additional. To me that sounds like the overall healing power needs to be increased, not a problem specific to reagents.
You completely missed the point here. *IF* reagents are added (as in an additional source) to humaniods, then always having to go back and farm mobs that are only for you won't be as much as a requirement. I've never said I want humaniods to be the only and definitely not best option to get reagents.

I didn't say they'd be the only source or best option either. I just mean if you kill 100 humanoids and get 10 of your reagent it's such a small amount that it would do nothing but cause people to be upset at how little they get. And we do see feedback like that, arrows/bandages/consumables all have had negative feedback if the amounts given are just so low its not consistently useful. A 5% return rate of reagents on humanoids, it just doesn't seem like its worth angering people over. Maybe we are just completely envisioning things differently, are you saying like a 50% rate of return on humanoids or something much higher?
When did, how or why did a reagent give an ability?

I think this confusion might be part of the reason this has been so difficult to discuss. In fact reagents overwrite 95% of what the ability does. It is not a bonus on top, it IS the ability if used. Any bonuses to the ability are just a new version of the ability with higher numbers. The only thing reagents don't overwrite is how much stamina it costs to use the ability and what the cooldown is. To the point where the reagent and the ability can be discussed interchangeably because they are essentially one and the same. So yea if I flagged venom strike as using irritant then venom strike would turn into a taunt if used with irritant.
Condensing the reagent list should make writing and future expansion of abilities easier....I would think.

Absolutely!

How is this mixed messages. We are saying the same thing. Kaeolin = game hard with no reagents. Kittik = game hard because reagents are weak.

Sounds like the game is just too hard regardless of reagents :)
 

Kittik

Well-Known Member
Sounds like the game is just too hard regardless of reagents :)
There is a magical balance to get a game that is challenging, where if the players can do it just right, their becomes a flow to it. EA is missing that balance of challenge right now and are aiming to just make things hard/difficult/frustrating. The paradigm of play has shifted over the past twenty years. Everything is so fast paced and kill without worry now-a-days that is, IMO, pathetic. I see what SHS is trying to do here with a more purposeful pace of combat and progression. But making it hard or purposefully making players move though combat and/or encounters at a such a slow pace isn't fun. (Which is the turn I've seen from the removal of abilities leveling and become more powerful the more you use them, and from the talk of removing reagents). Neither I, nor anyone I've played with want Fortnight, but we also don't want sitting around constantly.
 

Kittik

Well-Known Member
Maybe make reagents more rare, yet much more powerful.

*edit* Hmmm...however, if they are more rare and much more powerful...then they'll deff be farmed...and then people will really complain about how rare they are............hmmmmmm

*2nd edit* Ok, so this brings me back to my point of just make them a little more powerful....and more abundant.
 

Rev

Well-Known Member
I will say that having each class have to "farm" a different mob/plant/shroom/etc. does make it more difficult. If you don't get a group to kill spiders, Wardens are out of luck. If you don't do forestry, there are several reagents you will have to purchase off of others if you want any. Want pee? Go farm bears. Seems less organic more grindy. Not exactly sure how to improve it unless you give multiple options for each one so they can be obtained through multiple pathways (fighting, collecting, crafting, ?)


OMG! I am agreeing with Kittik on something. :p
 

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
There is more than meets the eye here when it comes to the distribution of reagents. You are all basically asking that we make the drops more readily available from different sources. But what we're trying to do is add some semblance of consistency regarding the sources. The moment we start to pepper them elsewhere we lose that consistency and complaints will then start to come in that reagent drops are "too random" and it is difficult to find a specific reagent you are looking for. If you as a player find that reagents are required for you to do your job effectively - then it also becomes your responsibility to "prep" your character ahead of time to be ready for a group battle. In theory it's not all that different than arrows, consumables, repairs - except reagents are not readily available at a merchant, you have to do a little extra work for them. And if the group feels as though their tank needs irritant and they don't have any, then maybe they go hunt equal level bears for a bit so the tank can stock up and everyone gets xp at the same time; after all, we are trying to incentivize folks to work together to accomplish shared goals.

The overall idea of the reagent system is that everyone is an effective member of the group without reagents. Reagents should just allow you to operate more efficiently and at a faster pace. Reagents should not be required but desired. If reagents are readily available then they become an afterthought - which is not what we want. We instead want reagents to be a few notches below "difficult to acquire" but a few notches above "everyone drops this". Because of this I do not think that making them more abundant solves any problems; it would make them more of an after thought and at that point we might as well just remove them all together, which leads to us being back to boring one track abilities and the entire ember essence thesis goes out the window. Abundance of an item does take away the "grind", but I would argue that the fact that you feel as though they are required is the design issue, not the availability of them. Getting a reagent drop should almost feel like a semi-rare piece of loot tailored for your role or spec.
 

Kittik

Well-Known Member
If it makes your character even slightly better. It is required. Not sure if you've ever played an MMO before. Do you know mmo players? Have you heard of a thing called min/max? You know this as well as anyone else, that if it's going to give any advantage.......it's required. Maybe the solo casual that enjoy running around and pretending to smell the flowers wouldn't care to much, but without a doubt, groups will ask you if you have reagents before inviting you. Raid guilds will for sure require it. Casuals who feel left out will be the ones complaining the most that they can never get any because raid guilds are farming them etc.

Cut the number of reagents in half, program it to where one reagent can affect multiple abilities and place that reagent more abundantly throughout the world.
 

Kaeolin

Well-Known Member
I was in a group last night, fighting exiles in NNH camp. Group was 7-12 with myself and the tank being 12. I was able to heal without reagents being equipped on easy encounters. However, anytime it got even remotely difficult, without that added bonus, we would have failed. We did fail once, but that is due to me dying from heal agro and a completely different topic.

As Kittik stated, many people are min/max type of people. I am one of those people. I want the most out of my abilities, so if a Reagent makes me more powerful, I'm always going to have and use reagents. If that requires me to farm for materials for 2 hours a day, that's my choice.

The original topic of this post was the rarity of the reagents. For me, my primary reagent isn't that rare. I just need to farm cotton at this level. You took reagents from the vendors with the idea that reagents weren't needed. We are saying they are needed and desired. You want to have tiered reagents, fine. crafted >dropped > merchant bought. Put reagents back on vendors to give us the choice.

In my other post about the strength and impact of reagents, I'd just like to emphatically state that reagents should NOT morph the main ability. They should always just add to the base ability. With Adric's statement that my abilities upgrade 8,18,28,38,48 you are basically hamstringing reagents once I get close to the next step. At lvl 7 using the tier 1 reagent is a waste of resources. At 8, I'd feel the most powerful with a reagent, then seemingly get weaker until I reach 18. However, the mobs don't do damage in this way. So perhaps that's why I feel I'm struggling right now being in the middle of 8 and 18, and it's going to get worse for me until I reach 18 at which time the cycle repeats.
 

Kittik

Well-Known Member
In my other post about the strength and impact of reagents, I'd just like to emphatically state that reagents should NOT morph the main ability. They should always just add to the base ability. With Adric's statement that my abilities upgrade 8,18,28,38,48 you are basically hamstringing reagents once I get close to the next step. At lvl 7 using the tier 1 reagent is a waste of resources. At 8, I'd feel the most powerful with a reagent, then seemingly get weaker until I reach 18. However, the mobs don't do damage in this way. So perhaps that's why I feel I'm struggling right now being in the middle of 8 and 18, and it's going to get worse for me until I reach 18 at which time the cycle repeats.
Great point!
 

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
I was in a group last night, fighting exiles in NNH camp. Group was 7-12 with myself and the tank being 12. I was able to heal without reagents being equipped on easy encounters. However, anytime it got even remotely difficult, without that added bonus, we would have failed. We did fail once, but that is due to me dying from heal agro and a completely different topic.
It kind of sounds like you were able to operate more effectively with reagents, but pretty decent without them? That's kind of what we are going for no?

As Kittik stated, many people are min/max type of people. I am one of those people. I want the most out of my abilities, so if a Reagent makes me more powerful, I'm always going to have and use reagents. If that requires me to farm for materials for 2 hours a day, that's my choice.
I think that's precisely the point I was trying to make earlier - if you want to farm reagents than that is a choice you must make as part of your "battle prep" - the key here is that we are providing you with a choice to do, or not to do said thing. Ideally you would naturally come across reagents during your adventures by coming across mobs that drop your particular reagent - but to my previous point their drops should be consistent in where they come from.

The original topic of this post was the rarity of the reagents. For me, my primary reagent isn't that rare. I just need to farm cotton at this level. You took reagents from the vendors with the idea that reagents weren't needed. We are saying they are needed and desired. You want to have tiered reagents, fine. crafted >dropped > merchant bought. Put reagents back on vendors to give us the choice.
I'm still not sold on reagents being craftable. It creates an imbalance in the supply and negates the desire to go hunt for them. Same principle applies to purchased reagents imo.

In my other post about the strength and impact of reagents, I'd just like to emphatically state that reagents should NOT morph the main ability. They should always just add to the base ability. With Adric's statement that my abilities upgrade 8,18,28,38,48 you are basically hamstringing reagents once I get close to the next step. At lvl 7 using the tier 1 reagent is a waste of resources. At 8, I'd feel the most powerful with a reagent, then seemingly get weaker until I reach 18. However, the mobs don't do damage in this way. So perhaps that's why I feel I'm struggling right now being in the middle of 8 and 18, and it's going to get worse for me until I reach 18 at which time the cycle repeats.
Reagents or not this will still happen. Abilities do not linearly scale between upgrades - so even without a reagent the ability will begin to "weaken" as you increase in level and the mobs get more difficult. And in regards to reagents not morphing the base ability - then I ask what is the point of them? If they just "add" to the base ability then we have no way of offering "alternate" reagents through the ember-essence upgrade system.

If it makes your character even slightly better. It is required. Not sure if you've ever played an MMO before. Do you know mmo players? Have you heard of a thing called min/max? You know this as well as anyone else, that if it's going to give any advantage.......it's required. Maybe the solo casual that enjoy running around and pretending to smell the flowers wouldn't care to much, but without a doubt, groups will ask you if you have reagents before inviting you. Raid guilds will for sure require it. Casuals who feel left out will be the ones complaining the most that they can never get any because raid guilds are farming them etc.
It sounds like you want them to made no drop :O

Cut the number of reagents in half, program it to where one reagent can affect multiple abilities and place that reagent more abundantly throughout the world.
I fail to see how this solves anything. If we were to do this why not just strip reagents out entirely? You all are making it sound like they're the most pain in the ass thing ever invented in the world of video games. The design intent was a more organic alternative to traditional ability skill trees that asked you to do a little work to acquire them (which also rewards you with xp). Reagent upgrading is intended to provide branching upgrade paths for an ability that are not permanent which would allow for a greater range of experimentation. Not to mention that any sort of mass consolidation would totally destroy any thematic elements that are currently present.
 

Kaeolin

Well-Known Member
Well with only two of us commenting on it, it's not going to change the way you are doing it. I'm really surprised nobody else has any input or has done any testing to provide feedback. Either most are happy with it as is, or they just don't care.
 

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
Well with only two of us commenting on it, it's not going to change the way you are doing it. I'm really surprised nobody else has any input or has done any testing to provide feedback. Either most are happy with it as is, or they just don't care.
It's a difficult thing to balance; on one hand players are always going to want things moved towards being easier to acquire while designers want you to work for it. We're still very early in the reagent "balancing" phase and the system is currently half-baked considering the upgrades are non-existant. I guess all I'm asking is that you keep an open mind until we get a little more of the system in place and more balance work done before asking us to change the design entirely :)

Your feedback is extremely important and we hear what you are saying. We're already churning away at some design modifications that may make the experience a bit more intuitive thanks to your feedback. Whatever you do, please don't stop providing it. Just don't hold it against us when we don't immediately cave to demands because we're still working on the system as a whole :p
 

Kaeolin

Well-Known Member
. Just don't hold it against us when we don't immediately cave to demands because we're still working on the system as a whole :p
Never would do so. I am realizing that many folks aren't providing feedback at all. I accept that you have a bigger picture. I did comment somewhere that we are still only testing beginning game. :D We all have a long way to go.
 

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
Never would do so. I am realizing that many folks aren't providing feedback at all. I accept that you have a bigger picture. I did comment somewhere that we are still only testing beginning game. :D We all have a long way to go.
I think most of that comes down to either a) the system "works" for them and it doesn't bother them, or b) the system does not make it clear what the hell is going on so they don't know that it's something to provide feedback on. I'm willing to bet it's more on the side of b in many cases.

The whole reagent upgrade path in my brain is working realllllly well - but in practice we have yet to see how that actually pans out. Designing abilities for 9 different specs and not having them step on each other's toes is challenging in itself, couple that with the fact that each ability has to be "generic" enough thematically to work with three different weapon styles and things get even more challenging. Now try to add permutations of some of those abilities on top of everything else and...well...hopefully you can see where this is going. It takes time, iterations, and a good feedback loop between the community of testers and designers. Thankfully, many of you are pretty good at participating in that feedback loop and we thank you for that!