Reagent Bug

[Kaeolin]

I discussed with Adric earlier and told him I'd check my skills. I've found a problem with the skills that seems to go across all specs. Lavon confirmed similar results. Anyways, my base ability, First-Aid at level 11 heals for 26+1d4 when I equip a crafted t1 bandage, it changes to 2d4+18, so I heal for more without a Reagent than with the crafted t1 reagent. With Tier 2 (Cotton) thick bandage crafted, it's 2d4+34. The dropped version of Thick bandage, which can't be used until 8, is the same heal as no reagent 1d4+26.

Lavon confirmed his skills are similar.

 

[AdricLives]

First-Aid at level 11 heals for 26+1d4 when I equip a crafted t1 bandage, it changes to 2d4+18, so I heal for more without a Reagent than with the crafted t1 reagent.

Well yes, that reagent requires level 1 (2 since you get the skill at 2), you are 10 levels higher than that reagent. This seems fine, more a concern that there's no feedback around using lower level reagents, or no system in place that would supersede equipped reagents with a better baseline ability.

The dropped version of Thick bandage, which can't be used until 8, is the same heal as no reagent 1d4+26.

Yea the issue here is the dropped bandages are the old merchant level of power (in fact this was always the case that dropped bandages == merchant bandages). Which the old merchant reagents are roughly what the baseline values are now for the abilities give or take a few points.

I think the ideal situation is base < dropped == crafted. So you can either craft the better bandages or get them from humanoids. This is easier on me as well as I don't need to juggle yet another version of bandages with their own power progression.

Thanks for confirming, I'll see if there's anything simple we can do to help avoid situations where people might be using reagents for no good reason at best or with reduced effectiveness at worst.

 

[Kaeolin]

Well yes, that reagent requires level 1 (2 since you get the skill at 2), you are 10 levels higher than that reagent. This seems fine, more a concern that there's no feedback around using lower level reagents, or no system in place that would supersede equipped reagents with a better baseline ability.

So the Crafted level 2 bandage is intended to be worse than casting without a reagent? You said base < dropped == crafted So a crafted bandage should always improve the ability. I will acknowledge that my skills felt stronger when I was lower. So that might point to a lack of ability increase as we level and as we face creatures in the world who are higher level. I get that other modifiers come into play like armor and such, but it might need to be reviewed.

Yea the issue here is the dropped bandages are the old merchant level of power (in fact this was always the case that dropped bandages == merchant bandages). Which the old merchant reagents are roughly what the baseline values are now for the abilities give or take a few points.

I think the ideal situation is base < dropped == crafted. So you can either craft the better bandages or get them from humanoids. This is easier on me as well as I don't need to juggle yet another version of bandages with their own power progression.

I'm not asking for an additional reagent type, just the one that exists to be beneficial to using. Shouldn't the base ability grow as I level and reagents, regardless of level, should improve upon that base? So Base ability + modifier from Reagent. Right now the Reagent is changing the base skill. It should just modify it.

Thanks for confirming, I'll see if there's anything simple we can do to help avoid situations where people might be using reagents for no good reason at best or with reduced effectiveness at worst.

I told you yesterday I'd do some tests with and without reagents. My results are above. I feel like the benefit of reagents doesn't quantify the time it takes to gather reagents and I'm just gathering herbs. Those who need reagents to drop, i feel sorry for.

 

[AdricLives]

You said base < dropped == crafted

First that is what I think is ideal it is not representative of what is current bandages (base == dropped < crafted). And second I was missing some additional context. - Of the same level range - The comparison is only valid of equivalent level. So if you are lvl 10 then lvl 10 bandages are ALWAYS better than the base ability. Same level reagents are always stronger than their level equivalent base ability.

First Aid (off the top of my head) inceases at lvl 8/18/28/38/48 similar to when you are able to use reagent levels unlocked at 8/18/28/38/48. The reagent at 8 is always better than the ability at 8. But the reagent at 8 is NOT better than the ability at 18.

Shouldn't the base ability grow as I level and reagents, regardless of level, should improve upon that base? So Base ability + modifier from Reagent. Right now the Reagent is changing the base skill. It should just modify it.

It certainly could be that way, but currently it is not. There's no easy solution "reagent adds 20% more" because some abilities are binary in their effect (Stun). It does make some sense to only allow it to add onto the ability in that it means the reagent ALWAYS improves things, which is nice in that it simplifies things a bit. But it means reagents are not consistent if we want reagents that completely change the ability entirely (provoke changes to a debuff or dmg ability etc.). It's an interesting thought of how we might try to frame reagents in a way that might perhaps always provide a benefit versus being in competition against the base ability which is a current issue. Will think about this one.

Those who need reagents to drop, i feel sorry for.

Again, no one NEEDS reagents.

 

[Pelirow]

First Aid (off the top of my head) inceases at lvl 8/18/28/38/48 similar to when you are able to use reagent levels unlocked at 8/18/28/38/48. The reagent at 8 is always better than the ability at 8. But the reagent at 8 is NOT better than the ability at 18.

It certainly could be that way, but currently it is not. There's no easy solution "reagent adds 20% more" because some abilities are binary in their effect (Stun). It does make some sense to only allow it to add onto the ability in that it means the reagent ALWAYS improves things, which is nice in that it simplifies things a bit. But it means reagents are not consistent if we want reagents that completely change the ability entirely (provoke changes to a debuff or dmg ability etc.). It's an interesting thought of how we might try to frame reagents in a way that might perhaps always provide a benefit versus being in competition against the base ability which is a current issue. Will think about this one.

So if I'm reading this right, that means my level 6 reagents are likely useless now that I'm level 11? If so, I'm not sure that's ideal, and now understand how reagent "replacing" the base skill can be a bad idea. I think reagents should definitely supplement/tweak the base ability to always be a benefit (level 6 bear piss adds +3 threat, level 10 bear piss adds +6 threat, etc). This would harmonize with my proposal that reagent slots have conditionals on use.

Why is it not an easy solution? Couldn't you restructure the code as needed? I mean, I get that it would probably require coding wizardry to do stuff like this, but that's what Undone is for dammit!

Making it so that reagents that change an ability completely (such as provoke changed to a debuff or damage) simply sounds absolutely amazing and I have a hard time believing that Undone can't create a foundation that would allow for this while still accounting for reagents that "add x% more" like you mentioned.

In short, I think reagents should be here to stay but need to not replace the base ability and instead supplement it.

 

[Undone]

Why is it not an easy solution? Couldn't you restructure the code as needed? I mean, I get that it would probably require coding wizardry to do stuff like this, but that's what Undone is for dammit!

Making it so that reagents that change an ability completely (such as provoke changed to a debuff or damage) simply sounds absolutely amazing and I have a hard time believing that Undone can't create a foundation that would allow for this while still accounting for reagents that "add x% more" like you mentioned.

In short, I think reagents should be here to stay but need to not replace the base ability and instead supplement it.

The primary issue is that our effects system is relatively complex. That complexity allows for a lot of flexibility, but also makes some things much more of a pain in the neck. However, we are already heading in this direction but it will likely take a week or two to sort out.

 

[Pelirow]

The primary issue is that our effects system is relatively complex. That complexity allows for a lot of flexibility, but also makes some things much more of a pain in the neck. However, we are already heading in this direction but it will likely take a week or two to sort out.

Good to hear, as long as it's doable it sounds like it'd be better for the game in the long run and make it easier to add and tweak reagents. I'll be more than happy to help test this once implemented.