Rare monsters & Common monsters Rare Loot

[Blyte Plays]

Still have yet to see a Champion spawn, this cycle, in Dryfoot Stronghold.

We hoped to have some luck this time, and turned over his spawn 3 times, but with the spawn time changes it was a painful wait. Maybe the spawn time is good for an on level group, so I wouldn't change that, but the champion just seems busted. An arena champion in a constantly running arena, should be a given.

We've gotten one pair of the coveted nomad boots this cycle. With 8+ people I run this place with, I feel that is just too low a drop rate. All common monsters with rare drops, EVERYWHERE, feel this way. It just seems 0-1 people get a common monster rare drop in a static group, by the time you out level the content. Entirely too rare, especially when you encourage us to bounce around and not camp. It would be more like 0-0 people get the rare drop. I feel like I'm honestly beating a dead horse, but I get no replies on this subject. I hate wasting my time trying to sample what a mob type drops, and often times they drop so damn rarely, that I cant remember what the mob type actually drops (ruffians, marauders, etc...) atleast the wolves in meadows had an uncommon drop, but all these mobs that only have a ULTRA rare drop, just feel like you are playing rigged scratch offs. Especially frustrating when you are there just trying to get/see what they drop.

Nomads and the Exile Guards/Fishers have been exceedingly futile feeling. Only having seen one of the 3, drop one thing. I've heard that nomads also have a bow, so imagine you are trying for boots, and then whoopty doo, a vastly outleveled bow, finally drops for you....

Your gear buckets, seem to have holes shaped like the gear people are there for, and its aggravating.

 

[Blyte Plays]

I will say that I've been back to fight wolves about 6 times since my rant about them, and I've had more luck with them. The low level guys I bring through there, get hooked up, they've gotten a few daggers and just last night we got the servers 2nd howler staff. I dont know if this was a change to drop rates, locally, globally, or not at all, and I am just getting better at woodchipping them for noobie groups.

We are still at 1 server dread maul to my knowledge, in thousands of wolf corpses.

If it was a change to local drops for wolves only and we can expect the same dismal rates elsewhere, ughhhhhhhhhh

 

[AdricLives]

Sorry I often write up responses to these and end up deleting it because my responses arent really helpful or gives too much info and I end up deleting them. Clearly with recent changes to spawn rates (note just named spawn rate was adjusted, not rare drop rates from uncommons - howler, nomad, their, etc.) it's something we're consuming feedback on.

I actually did not change the chance of loot from those uncommons, but with rng it will definitely ebb and flow. But I want to make sure I'm understanding your feedback.

When you talk about stuff like the howler staff and dread maul, iirc there are other items which drop from these mobs. Are you seeing way too many of those items and too few of the weapons? Or are you saying any items at all are just completely too rare?

Speaking to the champion you mention turning the spawn. What do you mean by this?

Regarding common spawns and their rares. I'm not entirely sure why it matters regarding us encouraging movement. Nomads for example can spawn randomly, you could sit there and wait for them, but I don't see how it's beneficial to do so, nor how moving around is detrimental to finding them.

Rares are just that, shiny upgrades to chase. The gear is not necessary to progress and crafted gear can easily fill gaps which we definitely rely on since filling every spot with a rare is a substantial undertaking and not an expected method of gearing while leveling. Maybe there's a disconnect with expectations around rares and that everyone should get all their rares from a camp before getting a level and moving on, but it is not. If there is a slot you feel has no reasonable equipment to fill please let me know.

 

[Blyte Plays]

When you talk about stuff like the howler staff and dread maul, iirc there are other items which drop from these mobs. Are you seeing way too many of those items and too few of the weapons? Or are you saying any items at all are just completely too rare?

The common monsters IE howler, backbiter, nomad, marauder, ruffian etc.. which have rare drops seem ULTRA rare.

Got a kings bracer off a guard. There are entirely too many bracer drops. Everyone and their mother drops bracers. We can craft bracers... can we please get some breast plates?

Speaking to the champion you mention turning the spawn. What do you mean by this?

We are killing everything in the arena, over and over, is what I mean by turning the spawn. But like I said, they fight themselves, so unless the champion is a pushover, shouldn't they be spawning them for us and he should just be killing off the normal exiles, waiting for a real challenger? Like wolfbanes and trackers naturally spawn.

you could sit there and wait for them, but I don't see how it's beneficial to do so, nor how moving around is detrimental to finding them

When you say things like you will find more of X if you move around, that leaves the implication of there being an anti-camp code. It is difficult to just move around in an on level environment, and when you have worked your way under constant threat of wipe to get to a "camp spot" like the arena center, you dont want to leave it and have to break it all over, or in a high population area, potentially lose it to another group.


More replies later, got to run

 

[Blyte Plays]

Maybe there's a disconnect with expectations around rares and that everyone should get all their rares from a camp before getting a level and moving on, but it is not.

We are camping the things past it being long grey, trying to find a piece of gear, like nomad boots, which have dropped one time for our group. The howler staff another example. These boots and staves aren't craftable and about as rare as insert explitive example.

I understand that the more prolific something is, the less valuable it becomes, but your rates of rare pieces on common spawns are too rare. You saying that you havent adjusted the rates, just tells me why am I wasting my brearh, tbh.

I am starting to feel like I'm bitching about thieves blades.

But if the expectation is that, after extensive sessions of exhausting a location beyond XP potential, yielding 0-1 for a group of people, then ya nailed it.

 

[AdricLives]

The common monsters IE howler, backbiter, nomad, marauder, ruffian etc.. which have rare drops seem ULTRA rare.

The monsters are ultra rare? Any drops are ultra rare? Or specific drops are ultra rare?

We can craft bracers.

Crafting specializations are coming. Your probably right about vambraces (and maybe greaves too?) Because when looking at what to offer as the most common drop I often pick something generic that is generally useful being inner armor, jewelry, and low armor weight pieces.

We are killing everything in the arena, over and over, is what I mean by turning the spawn.

The champion occasionally is called into the arena to defend his title, but has been spotted in other nearby locations too. Not sure if your efforts have been entirely focused inside the arena proper.

When you say things like you will find more of X if you move

I didn't mean that. I said there was no advantage to camping a spawn like that from a single camp point and waiting for respawns. Those spawns like nomads are found generally across the entire zone, I just wondered why waiting for respawns was preferable to hunting then across the zone. To be clear there is no difference in spawn rates or drop rates for nomads whether you are camping or roaming. I just mean if you were waiting for respawns then why not roam.

I am starting to feel like I'm bitching about thieves blades.

But if the expectation is that, after extensive sessions of exhausting a location beyond XP potential, yielding 0-1 for a group of people, then ya nailed it.

Which is why I am asking questions about the other drops which you conveniently have not responded about. You tell me everyone is coming home empty handed but I'm skeptical since I get no feedback regarding the stuff other than the exact item you are hunting.

Increasing spawns and drop rates might just make other items too common, and maybe the balance between what drops needs to be adjusted, but I don't have a clear indication of which might be the case.

 

[Blyte Plays]

The monsters are ultra rare? Any drops are ultra rare? Or specific drops are ultra rare?

I will try to be as clear as I can. But I'm feeling trolled here. The common monsters IE howlers, nomads, ruffians, you name it.. have rare dropped items which are too rare.

The champion occasionally is called into the arena to defend his title, but has been spotted in other nearby locations too. Not sure if your efforts have been entirely focused inside the arena proper.

We are slaying everything in and around the arena. Numerous play sessions, and no champion.

I just mean if you were waiting for respawns then why not roam.

Which is why I explained, roaming isn't always a safe option. When the zone isnt green and grey, so assume it's not a slay fest, and it is a dungeon crawl. I've done both there, and I dont feel that my experience slaughtering greys, is as relavent.

Which is why I am asking questions about the other drops which you conveniently have not responded about. You tell me everyone is coming home empty handed but I'm skeptical since I get no feedback regarding the stuff other than the exact item you are hunting.

Which drops are you specifically asking about which I'm ignoring? I'm telling you that all "ALL" rare drops off common monsters are too rare. Especially when the drop is overpowered and coveted. When a group of 8+ people see one get an item that is far and away a mega upgrade for the group, we are likely to try and camp it. When the camp turns into an exercise in futility spanning many nights and ceases to offer anything but the prospect of that item, then it is too rare in my opinion. And is the object of gaming frustration.

 

[Blyte Plays]

I will give you a case example. A player I group with regularly still is wearing 5 of the uncommon drops from wolves (chain, 2 rings, and 2 bracers) (these are not the rare drops). These are a special case monster, which is a common monster, with uncommon and rare drops. He is level 30, and drops in other areas are too rare for him to find other options. Other than those which were dropped by wolves. If this doesnt demonstrate a problem of scarcity I dont know what will. There needs to be more prolifically dropped items from common monster types. The wolves were done right imo. The frustration of the scarcity of their rares is still a problem. But the uncommon drops off them is right on. It's just sad that he is wearing gear off long grey monsters, due to lack of item drops off others.

 

[Blyte Plays]

I can feed you itemization ideas all the day long for filling uncommon drop tables, and if there were more of them it wouldn't hurt so bad when the rares never show.

Perhaps the wolves should be a model for many more critters in other areas. You feel rewarded more from wolves than any other spot I've found. Until you find out about their rares lol and cant get them to drop....

 

[Undone]

I just want to interject here and mention a few things.

First and foremost no one is trying to troll you @Blyte Plays - we are genuinely just trying to get a better perspective of what is going on. There are a number of different variables involved here and without spelling out how our spawn system works (which is something we do not want to do) all we can do is ask questions to try get a better understanding of what your group is experiencing.

Some items are rare drops off of common mobs (i.e. thieves blades) - these are intended to be super rare akin to playing the lottery. Then we have uncommon mobs that could have both rare and more common drops. And finally we have rare mobs which can also have a variety of common vs. uncommon loot. All of these things mix together and may not be readily apparent to players. The more specific examples you can give us the better we can understand what is going on. I am a bit too far removed to have an informed discussion on the minute details of spawn percentages etc given that Adric handles spawns & loot tables but I wanted to share some design perspective.

Secondly - I can assure you, as the person who wrote the code - that there is no "anti camp" code in the game. At no point does our spawn system query the surroundings for nearby players. A player's presence has zero impact on which spawn is selected.

 

[Blyte Plays]

Secondly - I can assure you, as the person who wrote the code - that there is no "anti camp" code in the game. At no point does our spawn system query the surroundings for nearby players. A player's presence has zero impact on which spawn is selected.

I know this, and I'm constantly telling veteran players to the game., who still have their doubts. What I am saying is when the team suggests movement to have reward, it is implied. I am saying you should be cautious about implying this. Because this talk has been inferred by myself and many that it eludes to anticamp. I was just dispelling this lastnight to a VERY high level player, with more played time than myself.

First and foremost no one is trying to troll you @Blyte Plays - we are genuinely just trying to get a better perspective of what is going on.

I was repeating myself, and not wanting to feel like I was religious about it, but I was past that point. What makes it especially tiresome is I'm doing this from a cell phone with a ridiculous auto correct.

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I want to help yall, but i feel like i am going against quite a head wind sometimes in doing it.

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I think a lot of your itemization buckets could use a few trash selections removed, and the creation of a few insertions of uncommon items in the bucket list.

Say for a common monster, you have 20 voids, 40 vendor trashes, 1 rare draw.

Perhaps replace 1 void and 2 vendor trashes with 3 of a new uncommon item draws.

Or when you dont want to add more uncommon items to a group, simply remove 2 voids and 2 vendor trashes.. removing 4 trash spawns a party will typically need to cut through to see a reward.

That's my suggestion.

 

[Undone]

I know this, and I'm constantly telling veteran players to the game., who still have their doubts. What I am saying is when the team suggests movement to have reward, it is implied. I am saying you should be cautious about implying this. Because this talk has been inferred by myself and many that it eludes to anticamp. I was just dispelling this lastnight to a VERY high level player, with more played time than myself.

Ah I gotcha. Do you have any suggestions how we could better word this as to not imply that we have anit-camp code?

I was repeating myself, and not wanting to feel like I was religious about it, but I was past that point. What makes it especially tiresome is I'm doing this from a cell phone with a ridiculous auto correct.

Fair enough. Cell phone replies are a pain in the neck so I get that.

I want to help yall, but i feel like i am going against quite a head wind sometimes in doing it.

We don't want you to feel that way. I think a lot of the disconnect is us not wanting to reveal any of the details of how our spawning system works coupled with us doing a bad job at asking the right questions. Ideally, we want to get to the root of why you end up leaving a zone feeling the way you do so we can make corrections. The trick is we have to first figure out the reason, then iterate on the solution all while not telling you anything about what is going on behind the scenes with the numbers.

In other words: we know how everything is configured and players know very little of how things are configured. This leads to player feedback coming in that mixes a bunch of stuff up which likely causes further confusion on both ends.

At the end of the day keep this type of feedback rolling in. We are going to ask a lot of annoying questions but there's a reason behind it all. The better we can understand the game through the player's eyes the better we can make adjustments on our through iteration.

 

[Undone]

I will give you a case example. A player I group with regularly still is wearing 5 of the uncommon drops from wolves (chain, 2 rings, and 2 bracers) (these are not the rare drops). These are a special case monster, which is a common monster, with uncommon and rare drops. He is level 30, and drops in other areas are too rare for him to find other options. Other than those which were dropped by wolves. If this doesnt demonstrate a problem of scarcity I dont know what will. There needs to be more prolifically dropped items from common monster types. The wolves were done right imo. The frustration of the scarcity of their rares is still a problem. But the uncommon drops off them is right on. It's just sad that he is wearing gear off long grey monsters, due to lack of item drops off others.

I can't speak to the specific drops here - but I think the general gist of our game is more closely related to EQ than WoW when it comes to itemization. Cycling through gear every 5-10 levels is not always going to happen and you might end up using a piece of gear for quite some time. The balance here gets tricky because because if you make too many gear upgrades more readily available the individual upgrades themselves begin to feel less impactful and/or exciting. Not to mention that if there are too many "middle" items then they start to step on the toes of crafted and uncommon items.

In this particular case I think it's worth looking at if the wolf gear too overpowered whereas players are holding on to it for too long, or maybe there is a gap that should be looked into.

 

[Blyte Plays]

Ah I gotcha. Do you have any suggestions how we could better word this as to not imply that we have anit-camp code?

Just will take a lot of the correct information being circulated. Because, at least in my circles, language in the past, had led us to the wrong assumption.

I just last night, saw for myself a rare spawn right beside me! I already believed what you told me, but then behold!

In this particular case I think it's worth looking at if the wolf gear too overpowered whereas players are holding on to it for too long, or maybe there is a gap that should be looked into.

Couldn't disagree more. We need more options proliferated. I'm telling you this vehemently, and you are casting serious doubts and spinning it in another direction. This player doesnt have other options presented to him, and that's why hes wearing them. If he were to have other rings, he would wear them instead of 2 combat movement, which he cares nothing about.

I think the bracer is a strong option, but I think he should use a flanking one personally.. he solos a bit so likes the ac of dark wolf. It's not OP, people are opting for other bracers, which are a common dropping gear slot in a world of slim options.

The belt is particularly good, but again there aren't many options.....

Needing to profess these opinions over and over a dozen different ways, is discouraging.

Please set your launch date back about 3 months and get your team about 12 days of /played time. Or start believing some people who have 12+ days of recent /played time, a little more readily

 

[Undone]

I’m not trying to spin anything, nor am I not believing you. As I mentioned above we are asking questions to get a better understanding. If we don’t fully understand how are we supposed to act in an informed manner? There’s plenty of room for misinterpretations and or missing nuance here. And if you feel as though your point isn’t coming across that doesn’t mean we are purposely not believing or disregarding them.

This is a complex topic that includes a ton of variables. Your opinions and thoughts are very helpful but don’t paint a full picture as something we can readily act on (hence why we are asking questions). In other words: fixing the underlying issue is our goal, and that is far more complex than just cranking up spawn rates and or loot drops.

 

[AdricLives]

A player I group with regularly still is wearing 5 of the uncommon drops from wolves (chain, 2 rings, and 2 bracers) (these are not the rare drops). These are a special case monster, which is a common monster, with uncommon and rare drops. He is level 30, and drops in other areas are too rare for him to find other options.

This is a good example, because lvl 30 itemization is very far behind and obviously we have little to nothing past this point.

Ideally quests and crafting fill in the gaps where rare drops are either too rare or there is a gap of slots, but prior to higher level quests being implemented and crafting specializations there is definitely some holes to fill.

If I'm cranking up lvl 5 rare drops it's not helping, so that sort of info is really helpful.

But I'm feeling trolled here.

Sorry alot of this is due to us using the same terms but referring to different things. I forget that my internal references to things like "uncommon" or "rare" has no bearing from a player perspective, I need to be more specific, but is also means I have to ask you lots of clarifying questions to figure out exactly which part of the system to look at.

I'm doing this from a cell phone with a ridiculous auto correct.

Same, forum posting is takes 10x longer on a phone unfortunately.

We need more options proliferated.

Is this in addition to this feedback post which was specific to spawns like champion? Or are these connected? The feedback was related to hunting mauls and daggers and boots I thought. I'll just say that I dig through so much feedback that maybe there's a thread through all your feedback that I haven't connected with.

Are people hunting daggers past gray in camps because they see no other options? Or do they just want that specific dagger as a better version of what they currently have?

Maybe everything is bad and broken? Which means just adding more items or changing drop rates or spawn rates won't fix anything.

Maybe you expect some version of each item to be available in every level range? So if you miss the nomad boots while leveling there you can pick up similar in redshore? It certainly makes things easier for me, but sounds boring AF to go from +5 movement boots to +6 movement boots every 5 levels.

How do you feel about the availability of things around lvl 10 or around lvl 20?

 

[Blyte Plays]

I am sorry for being an ass. I am happy to be getting your ear, but I think there is a large degree of misunderstanding. It is frustrating to beat this horse...

My ideas for this subject are really all over the place, and I hate going back and forth about it on this forum.

The biggest problem I see is that you have gear out there in your world that most people who spend time in a place will statistically never see. (Rare items on common monsters, the old thieves blade conundrum....) you want thieves blades to be rare AF, I dont care, but when a group must work to get somewhere and kill something, only to be expected to split 0 to 1 thieves blades, I see a problem.

I think you can solve this by making it a little more probable a drop. But also...

I think you have a lot more room to add more gear drops assossiciate with these common monsters in the form of uncommon drops. (Just like you did with the wolves)

A major focus for itemization imo should be any slot or gear type which we currently cannot craft. If you are adding gear which is in a craftable slot, I think it should be novel in someway.

I've said a number of times, we need alternative pieces to flanking added to the dps and supports gear. I suggested threat reduction gear. I think tanks need gear with threat additive built in as well. I see a big trend in current tank gear making them more tanky, but what good is it, if they cant hold aggro. You could also weave threat reduction into flanking gear, and make it an alternative to pen/hit/dmg. So you can choose to have gear which is super focused on damage output, or gear that sacrifices a little damage, for more subtlety. Tanking gear with threat additive could sacrifice any number of things as well. Ac/weight/flank/cmbMOV/resistances

Regarding the champion, I am giving you my anecdotal accounting of my experience shooting to see this monster. We have attempted it a half dozen times and everytime has returned void. I see this as a problem.

 

[AdricLives]

I am sorry for being an ass.

You're not, I assumed I was being the ass

The biggest problem I see is that you have gear out there in your world that most people who spend time in a place will statistically never see.

It's painful since it means more work for less visibility. But it is intentional. Rare is rare, not just "Rare" in name and color. Some pieces are good enough to carry you 10 levels or so, I think that's great.

I dont care, but when a group must work to get somewhere and kill something, only to be expected to split 0 to 1 thieves blades, I see a problem.

This actually does include stuff like the wolves because 1-chevron Howlers, Dread, Backbiters, etc. all exist as well making these weapons also farmable as a solo player to some extent. We give higher chances to the 2 and 3 chevron versions of things, but since the 1-chevrons and 3-chevrons share that loot table the rarity is somewhat shared between the two. Now this is something we can consider tweaking. The gap between solo and group content could be widened.

I think you have a lot more room to add more gear drops assossiciate with these common monsters in the form of uncommon drops. (Just like you did with the wolves)

I'm mostly hesitant around this due to this displacing crafters. The gap between common drops and rare drops are filled with the quest rewards and crafting gear. If groups can accumulate flux crafted quality gear just from exping then there remains little reason to have crafters. I've toyed with the idea, but it makes all the upgrades feel miniscule and not feel worthwhile.

A major focus for itemization imo should be any slot or gear type which we currently cannot craft.

In the next couple weeks this number will be going to zero, all slots and all weapon types will become craftable with specs.

I think tanks need gear with threat additive built in as well. I see a big trend in current tank gear making them more tanky, but what good is it, if they cant hold aggro.

But doesn't flanking already fill this role? It can increase your damage, increasing your threat at the cost of defenses.

Regarding the champion, I am giving you my anecdotal accounting of my experience shooting to see this monster. We have attempted it a half dozen times and everytime has returned void. I see this as a problem.

OK I will check on this, maybe something happened which is screwing with the spawn, it really doesn't sound like a rarity issue at this point.

 

[Blyte Plays]

It just sounds like nothing is wrong and we will soon be even more crafter dependent. Great.

Talked to the guy who is 30 and he actually has 6 pieces of wolf gear. Forgot he's still using a howler staff as well. So ya, undone maybe the wolf gear should be nerfed....

 

[Chestaclese]

The wolf belt is pretty op for uncommon wolf loot. I'd bet something like 90% of the server population that can wear it is wearing it. More belt options would be cool.

Pretty lame that the Zofly bp is exactly the same as a balanced chitin.

I think there is some disconnect to the importance of certain stats on uncommon rare mob drops; lot of rings, earrings, and boots that only offer mental resist or ember resist. For example, we killed a named mire that dropped 9 chemical resist earrings. There isn't enough storage to hold onto all this stuff.

Some of the rare spawns in drybones drop lvl 10 loot, wolfsbane and tracker specifically. That seems a bit low for that zone.