Missive or Repeatable task

[Superbitsandbob]

So you're literally trying to turn this game into every other modern MMO. WHY? That is not what the staff wants. Most of what you acquire in this game is meant to be done in a cooperative manner, whether it is done through trading, dungeon crawling, or quests which the majority of so far have sent us to places not meant to be soloed.

Can you provide quotes for that? On the FAQ the game says it is a sandbox. What you describe are restrictive mechanics. Assuming we are taking the meaning of sandbox from the usual which is a child goes into a sandbox and can do whatever they like. That isn't what you describe.

Also when you say every other MMO. Do you mean all MMO's that have quests, or dungeons, or combat and all the other things this one has that every other MMO has?

 

[Xavure]

All I have to say, is @Thilly you should accept what other players have to say on things and do not insult everyone that has not the same idea as you. You are welcome to be constructive, but bashing others ideas or throwing sentence like the person don't know what they are talking about are not very constructive.
We all get that you don't like these type of tasks, but that was the point of the post to see all the pros and cons.

I respect your arguments, but don't talk like if you know me or any other persons here.
Last thing: We're all on the same boat here, we don't want another clone of something, we want Embers Adrift!

 

[Thilly]

Can you provide quotes for that? On the FAQ the game says it is a sandbox. What you describe are restrictive mechanics. Assuming we are taking the meaning of sandbox from the usual which is a child goes into a sandbox and can do whatever they like. That isn't what you describe.

Also when you say every other MMO. Do you mean all MMO's that have quests, or dungeons, or combat and all the other things this one has that every other MMO has?

Huh?
Repeatable quests = themepark.
Open world cooperative dungeons = sandbox.

Not sure what you aren't understanding here.

Most modern MMOs are themeparks. You go to a camp, pick up a bunch of quests, and solo them - this is how you level up. A sandbox revolves more around exploring and roaming the world. Being a sandbox does not mean that quests or dungeons do not exist. This game's quest system is much more sandbox presently because there are so few quests and they aren't how you level up, and the character advancement you gain from them is very horizontal. In a themepark the rewards from quests are massive, they tend to give you a little bit of everything and the advancement you gain from them is much more vertical. Themepark dungeons are also more linear (and instanced), while sandbox dungeons are not. Not sure why you brought up combat.

Repeatable tasks being a form of advancement is a step in the themepark direction. Which, like you said, is against what the FAQ says this game is.

All I have to say, is @Thilly you should accept what other players have to say on things and do not insult everyone that has not the same idea as you. You are welcome to be constructive, but bashing others ideas or throwing sentence like the person don't know what they are talking about are not very constructive.
We all get that you don't like these type of tasks, but that was the point of the post to see all the pros and cons.

I respect your arguments, but don't talk like if you know me or any other persons here.
Last thing: We're all on the same boat here, we don't want another clone of something, we want Embers Adrift!

How have I not accepted what others say? If you can't handle people disagreeing with you - even constructively - then perhaps consider using a different way to communicate with the devs, the forums aren't the only way, and are meant to be used as a public form of discussion. I haven't insulted anyone, but putting words in my mouth and acting like I have could definitely be taken as insulting.

I have been 100% constructive here by detailing exactly why these types of quests do not fit this game and how negative their impact is. The cons heavily outweigh the pros. All you did was say you want this thing that pretty much no one else wants, not even the developers, and your only reason was "I like them."

 

[Undone]

Just a friendly remind to everyone that a lot of nuance gets lost in text communication over forums - so please keep that in mind when responding and reacting to other's posts. This applies to everyone equally. I have viewed this this discussion as mostly cordial and productive. But I can easily see a few instances where things may have been taken a certain way when maybe that was not the intent.

 

[Battlestorm]

Huh?
Repeatable quests = themepark.
Open world cooperative dungeons = sandbox.

Not sure what you aren't understanding here.

This is another area where we’ll need to agree to disagree. We now know how you, personally, categorize those components. For me…

Repeatable Quests = Gaming mechanic, can be found in many types of games.
Open World Cooperative Dungeons - Two different gaming mechanics (1. Open World / 2. Cooperative Dungeons), can be found in many types of games.

We understand what you’re saying. We disagree. That’s not a misunderstanding at all; it’s what makes the world go ‘round.

Most modern MMOs are themeparks. You go to a camp, pick up a bunch of quests, and solo them - this is how you level up.

I might not like the word “most” but this statement feels right, so imaletitslide. I’m not opposed to this, again, when it’s done right (ESO) versus when it’s just “there” (WoW).

A sandbox revolves more around exploring and roaming the world. Being a sandbox does not mean that quests or dungeons do not exist.

We’ll agree, here.

This game's quest system is much more sandbox presently because there are so few quests and they aren't how you level up, and the character advancement you gain from them is very horizontal.

Sandbox does NOT have to mean that there are only a few quests. It does not have to mean that quests shouldn’t level you up, either.

Your character advancement isn’t horizontal or vertical from questing. It’s 0. You don’t advance your character from the quests, you do so incidentally if you engage in successful combat encounters that reward XP.

When one scales horizontally (out) they add more, smaller, individual units. You have stated that Embers has more, smaller quests (repeatables?) that contribute to character advancement. Not so.

To scale vertically (up) one would simply add more depth or resources to existing, fewer objects. Fewer quests required for progression, but more depth and a lengthier time-to-complete for each. This is how the game currently progresses, but (again) It contributes nothing to your XP bar, directly.

As just another old architect, I can easily state that the industry has already solidified these terms quite definitively as I’ve stated above.

In a themepark the rewards from quests are massive, they tend to give you a little bit of everything and the advancement you gain from them is much more vertical. Themepark dungeons are also more linear (and instanced), while sandbox dungeons are not. Not sure why you brought up combat.

Oof, I don’t know. I have seen these mechanics mixed together and I won’t argue that what you’re combining here isn’t popular, but I still just see them as mere mechanics - any of which could be great if properly implemented.

Repeatable tasks being a form of advancement is a step in the themepark direction. Which, like you said, is against what the FAQ says this game is.

No, not with the right implementation, it wouldn’t. Again, only from within the narrow framework you force them into is that possible. Outside of that narrow point of view they’re a completely viable mechanic within a sandbox MMORPG.

How have I not accepted what others say?

Easy. You keep coming back to tell us how to define how games should or shouldn’t be viewed and/or categorized. You don’t get to decide how these things are defined for others, just as we’re not defining them for you. To wit, I still completely disagree with you across the board - and so do 2x other people in this forum. It doesn’t make any of us right or wrong, that’s just the way it is.

If you can't handle people disagreeing with you - even constructively - then perhaps consider using a different way to communicate with the devs,

Yes, well said, I completely agree with this statement.

You know, that reminds me, some of my absolute favorite places to eat are the restaurants where the kitchen staff will come out and eat their very own food…from their own kitchen. If we ever want to earn the respect of our audience, that’s how it’s done.

the forums aren't the only way, and are meant to be used as a public form of discussion.

I feel like that’s what we have here, no?

I haven't insulted anyone, but putting words in my mouth and acting like I have could definitely be taken as insulting.

I do feel insulted that you would continue to inflect your hard-coded thought process on the rest of us. We’ve already accepted your thought on the matter. I have. I don’t agree. Can’t we just leave it at that? Why continue? The only reason to continue to repeat yourself is to change our minds and/or tell us we’re wrong. We’re not. That’s okay.

I have been 100% constructive here by detailing exactly why these types of quests do not fit this game and how negative their impact is. The cons heavily outweigh the pros.

I don’t think you’ve been 100% constructive because you’re not 100% accurate. You’ve only listed potential outcomes/impacts…but not actual outcomes/impacts. What you’ve provided are the only outcomes that you can comprehend, but I’m happy to report that there are plenty of others in this forum who have a more open view of other possibilities - even if we don’t always agree.

All you did was say you want this thing that pretty much no one else wants, not even the developers, and your only reason was "I like them."

That’s not how I took it - besides, there are 2x of us now who seem to concur with OP. So the word “nobody” doesn’t actually apply anymore. It’s currently the majority.

Also, ”liking something” is a good enough reason to make a suggestion. We do things we like as often as we can and we avoid those that we don’t. This is a fairly plain life strategy. It’s common to share these experiences with others - just as you’ve done. These experiences don’t have to align.

 

[Xavure]

Ok this will be my last reply on that matter because I think we've pretty much covered it all and it was supposed to be a simple suggestion that weirdly turned into an argument.
From the start I've never tought fully about myself on this, but more about the longevity of the game as a whole related to player types. I've been invested so much in this game, for months now and I know that these little things can keep more players than not.

Here's my tought process....
Lets say we have 100 players like myself X and 100 players like @Thilly Y, what would be the outcome? (Don't take it personally, it's just for the example and since we are not agreeing it seemed appropriate)
There was 2 possibles scenarios, as I tought about it:

1- No tasks added:
X might fade away at some point cause they need more side activities or options. Lets say we lose 50% for the argument sake.
Y will keep playing.

2- Tasks added:
X will keep playing.
Y will keep playing right? Lets say we lose 15% out of total frustration. However, In my mind nobody will leave because of that really.

If we look at it long term and we want a game to play for years, than the choice here is really simple. I know these are very simplified scenarios.

Anyway Peace out and see you all in game!

 

[Superbitsandbob]

Huh?
Repeatable quests = themepark.
Open world cooperative dungeons = sandbox.

Not sure what you aren't understanding here.

Most modern MMOs are themeparks. You go to a camp, pick up a bunch of quests, and solo them - this is how you level up. A sandbox revolves more around exploring and roaming the world. Being a sandbox does not mean that quests or dungeons do not exist. This game's quest system is much more sandbox presently because there are so few quests and they aren't how you level up, and the character advancement you gain from them is very horizontal. In a themepark the rewards from quests are massive, they tend to give you a little bit of everything and the advancement you gain from them is much more vertical. Themepark dungeons are also more linear (and instanced), while sandbox dungeons are not. Not sure why you brought up combat.

Repeatable tasks being a form of advancement is a step in the themepark direction. Which, like you said, is against what the FAQ says this game is.


How have I not accepted what others say? If you can't handle people disagreeing with you - even constructively - then perhaps consider using a different way to communicate with the devs, the forums aren't the only way, and are meant to be used as a public form of discussion. I haven't insulted anyone, but putting words in my mouth and acting like I have could definitely be taken as insulting.

I have been 100% constructive here by detailing exactly why these types of quests do not fit this game and how negative their impact is. The cons heavily outweigh the pros. All you did was say you want this thing that pretty much no one else wants, not even the developers, and your only reason was "I like them."

Not much else to say other than what you class as a sandbox and what I class as a sandbox are at odds and so we will just go around in circles.

Interestingly classic Everquest, as an example, had repeatable quests that offered small rewards of coin, equipment or faction. It even had some that they gave big rewards, like gnoll fangs. In respect to a sandbox, classic EQ gave you far more options and player choice than EA, but still had these quests. I was recently levelling an Ogre SK just to faff about and Oggok has a number of them. UO had them for crafting. Maybe the first two genre defining MMO's, both of which are far more of a sandbox than what we are currently getting in the classic MMO's remade genre, are not classic enough for you.

 

[Thilly]

Here's my tought process....
Lets say we have 100 players like myself X and 100 players like @Thilly

You literally started off this thread with "I know this will not be the majority" and "I know most people hate these," how exactly did we get from that to comparing an equal amount of players both wanting and not wanting them? The scenario at least needs to be accurate and realistic.

Not much else to say other than what you class as a sandbox and what I class as a sandbox are at odds and so we will just go around in circles.

You could at least state what your idea of a sandbox is.

Interestingly classic Everquest, as an example, had repeatable quests that offered small rewards of coin, equipment or faction. It even had some that they gave big rewards, like gnoll fangs.

The kind of quest he's asking for = talk to npc/board, accept quest, kill 10 wolves, run back to NPC, turn in quest, pick up quest again <---- Themepark
Everquest = Grind on quest mobs however long you please, trade items to NPC. <---- Sandbox
Those repeatable EQ quests were only worth doing at very low levels, and had their EXP nerfed at some point to where they were hardly worth doing at all. There were also VERY few of them. And you'll be hard pressed to tell me any that existed outside of vanilla aside from Cabilis. So, try again.

UO had them for crafting.

Um, think you're talking about modern UO there, buddy. Unless you are talking about bulk order deeds, which weren't even added until 4 years after launch lol. And guess what... those things had long cooldowns, you didn't just sit there and spam them like OP wants to.

 

[Superbitsandbob]

The kind of quest he's asking for = talk to npc/board, accept quest, kill 10 wolves, run back to NPC, turn in quest, pick up quest again <---- Themepark
Everquest = Grind on quest mobs however long you please, trade items to NPC. <---- Sandbox
Those repeatable EQ quests were only worth doing at very low levels, and had their EXP nerfed at some point to where they were hardly worth doing at all. There were also VERY few of them. And you'll be hard pressed to tell me any that existed outside of vanilla aside from Cabilis. So, try again.

Um, think you're talking about modern UO there, buddy. Unless you are talking about bulk order deeds, which weren't even added until 4 years after launch lol. And guess what... those things had long cooldowns, you didn't just sit there and spam them like OP wants to.

I gave you examples? Oggok had them, Grobb had them, Qeynos had them, Rivervale had them and on and on. These are also the same quests that you apparently despise. Talk to an NPC and bring me x amount of this for a reward. 4 years into UO takes us to what 2001/2002, which is still 2 years before the release of WoW. Not really modern.

You can keep changing the goalposts all you want but you are simply wrong and are trying to adhere to a fairy-tale view of something that was never that way.

 

[Thilly]

I gave you examples? Oggok had them, Grobb had them, Qeynos had them, Rivervale had them and on and on. These are also the same quests that you apparently despise. Talk to an NPC and bring me x amount of this for a reward. 4 years into UO takes us to what 2001/2002, which is still 2 years before the release of WoW. Not really modern.

You can keep changing the goalposts all you want but you are simply wrong and are trying to adhere to a fairy-tale view of something that was never that way.

Dude did you actually do any of those quests? They are basically USELESS. Just stop.

 

[Superbitsandbob]

Dude did you actually do any of those quests? They are basically USELESS. Just stop.

I did very recently on P99 (which is not custom content they added themselves so you can't use that as an excuse). The one from the SK guild leader got me some starter gold by turning in lizard tails which is nothing to be sniffed at if you are a new player. I spent a lot of time trying out these repeatable quests in EQ about 2 years ago to see how useful they were to new players as I was thinking of doing starter guides for different races. You are wrong.

Unsurprisingly you never stated anything about what makes a quest useless or useful. You said repeatable quests = Themepark.

I'm honestly not sure you have played any of these games at all.

edit: I said gold its actually plat as you can level off of lizards until level 4 or so and each turn in of 4 gives you a sword you can vendor for 2.5 gold I think.

 

[Thilly]

2.5 gold I think.

2.5g... do you hear yourself? lol.

 

[Battlestorm]

You literally started off this thread with "I know this will not be the majority" and "I know most people hate these," how exactly did we get from that to comparing an equal amount of players both wanting and not wanting them? The scenario at least needs to be accurate and realistic.

It was a way to help you understand that a mechanic in a game that is optional is of no consequence to someone with your preference. You can ignore it. So you can leave the numbers behind if you like.

You could at least state what your idea of a sandbox is.

That’s much too large of a discussion. What’s on-point is simply as singular game mechanic that does not, in-and-of-itself, fully define a type of game.

The kind of quest he's asking for = talk to npc/board, accept quest, kill 10 wolves, run back to NPC, turn in quest, pick up quest again <---- Themepark
Everquest = Grind on quest mobs however long you please, trade items to NPC. <---- Sandbox
Those repeatable EQ quests were only worth doing at very low levels, and had their EXP nerfed at some point to where they were hardly worth doing at all. There were also VERY few of them. And you'll be hard pressed to tell me any that existed outside of vanilla aside from Cabilis. So, try again.

So, repeatable quests existed in EverQuest, which you now define as a sandbox. how can this be? One of your definitive arguments is disproved by the other.

Um, think you're talking about modern UO there, buddy. Unless you are talking about bulk order deeds, which weren't even added until 4 years after launch lol. And guess what... those things had long cooldowns, you didn't just sit there and spam them like OP wants to.

Did OP say they needed to be infinitely and instantly repeatable, forever? I guess I didn’t get that out of their suggestion. I don’t see why that can’t be limited in number and refresh in varying intervals (day/week).

 

[Battlestorm]

2.5g... do you hear yourself? lol.

This type of posturing is cancerous. These are subjective elements; none of us is the superior “nerd”. The ratio of “time spent” to “advancement gained” is not paramount in your arguments, not for someone who adamantly defends lore, discovery, and non-reward questing. It sounds like the crucial currency here is enjoyment.

I enjoy repeatable quests that offer light rewards and make players feel connected to the rebuilding of a world that’s short on help. You do not. Cool. Thanks for sharing. I won’t try to change your mind, you’ve cast your vote. We’ve cast ours.

We’re done here.

 

[Undone]

Thanks for the comments all! I’m locking this thread before it gets too heated.