Make the Embers flare

[Fyredancer]

Gday Drifters,
Here's some positive feedback with comparison for you -

Large open worlds to explore and gather and adventure is my thing - played Embers till it hurt (literally). I've tried so many games - oft quickly forgotten. (Mask something?)

One new big game is Pax Dei, now under Early Access - a huge open world MMO, with some similarities to Embers. They claim a staff of 75, with funding of over $30 million. But frankly, it's a disappointment - and Embers Adrift stands out in comparison.

PaxDei is incomplete, frustratingly so (even allowing for Early Access) - whole game functions are not even present (e.g. trading, money, quests, friends, mail, wider chat). It's more of an Alpha, frankly.

* Things just don't fit together well - there are many duplicated items, some craft tiers are missing; tier progression is not smooth. Clunky. Incomplete. Inconsistent. Often: "why did they do that? silly"
* Craft grind means huge waste of useless items.
* Bizarrely inconsistent small stack sizes.
* Many different craft items look identical.
* Everyone is the same - no classes or specialities.
* Clunky UI - three actions to use a spell (skill).
* No easy weapon swap.
* Naked corpse runs again - let's party like it's 1999.
* Combat so clunky it's called a place-holder, sorry - 'iterative development'.
* Poor community communication - occasional answers on Steam discussion.
* Player community getting notably frustrated at poor communication.
* Slow development - 3-5 months for one (underwhelming) update.
* Lotsa bugs and crashes.
* PvP and PvE = 'worst of both worlds'
* I see maybe 2-3 players in a week in game, world is littered with abandoned homes - ghost game does not have a good feeling.
* Future is unclear - vague roadmap, subscription and plots uncertain. Early Access until at least June 2025.

In short -
It's YAMMO made from random MMO pieces thrown together with no passion, no vision. Their heart just isn't in it


Embers has the opposite in many ways -

* Things fit together well - progression, tiers, classes, items = often: "ah, that's smart". Tres bien ensemble.
* Classic Holy Trinity with inter-dependent roles; different items and skills and looks.
* Craft grind not always wasted.
* Unlimited stacks - how obvious, how smart.
* Inter-dependencies like augments and reagents and potions - good ideas.
* Partial bag run (keeps weapons/armour/hotbar) - smart design balances risk/fun.
* Smooth UI (e.g. weapon swap, food etc.)
* Combat that builds complexity as you level.
* Although a small population, still a sense of an active world with players in it having fun.
* Game changes in response to feedback where practical.
* Smart new ideas like defensive vs offensive targets (did you patent that yet ?).
* Good development progress - similar performance with 1/10 the devs - amazing !
* Few bugs, quickly fixed.
* Excellent community communication, Elloa is a Shining Star, and your devs are committed and present. We love you all
* Clear roadmap and subscription future.

Especially - a 'Vision' - some may laugh, but it's important. Your design shows careful thinking in how things fit together, and interact, and progress. You have an undiscovered winner - with so many boring yet-another-forgettable games, Embers Adrift shows a rare quality from a skilled team who care.

But with a niche game and so many other games out there - need to get it in front of enough eyeballs. Pax Dei Discord has 80,000+ players. There is a plenty of interest in games like this, and thousands of unsatisfied players looking for a home.

So - yes I know it's been mentioned, yes I've heard it's hard - but I would move heaven and and earth to get Embers Adrift on Steam for the Christmas period or maybe the April holidays. Could get 100,000 players checking out Embers, which should leave a critical mass of subscribers.

"Come, brazier, do your duty, make the embers flare".
Aristophanes, Lysistrata [251].​

(BTW - I'm an oldie and heavily medicated - sometimes I've been a little crotchety - sorry Elloa and all. Overall the game and people are wonderful and I have a blast each time I return.)

 

[Keiban]

PaxDei is incomplete, frustratingly so (even allowing for Early Access) - whole game functions are not even present (e.g. trading, money, quests, friends, mail, wider chat). It's more of an Alpha, frankly.

Uhm, yes? That's what Steam Early Access is expected to be. Many games stay in Early Access for years. Did you really expect a finished game and like a few days headstart?

 

[Fyredancer]

Yes, I realise it's Early Access - I just think they did it too early, it's just too incomplete.

But that's not really my main point is it ?

It's about the quality of the game, the smart design, the thoughtful planning; and the team, especially communication with the community.

So the tone in Pax Dei Discord and Steam has become rather sour - and its just one example of many games like it, sadly.

By contrast, Stormhaven has managed to put together quite a skilled and committed team, small enough for efficient communication, but big enough to get things done.

Here, it feels like the devs totally know what they are doing, that the player community is in touch with the devs, that there's a continuous conversation.

Few games have that.

Competition is wide, but Embers' niche is narrow. It's all about the numbers - Steam means huge exposure, and having a full game ready to play stands out amongst so many incomplete, maybe-one-day games.

 

[North]

Played Pax Dei, awful. Uninstalled and forgotten.

 

[Keiban]

But with a niche game and so many other games out there - need to get it in front of enough eyeballs. Pax Dei Discord has 80,000+ players. There is a plenty of interest in games like this, and thousands of unsatisfied players looking for a home.

So - yes I know it's been mentioned, yes I've heard it's hard - but I would move heaven and and earth to get Embers Adrift on Steam for the Christmas period or maybe the April holidays. Could get 100,000 players checking out Embers, which should leave a critical mass of subscribers.

Ok, so your point is "so many bought this unfinished game on Steam, if EA went there it would sell even better".
I think it's pretty naive to think that. First of all it's of a very different genre, e.g. Sandbox MMO vs old school MMORPG. It received a lot of hype at release because (afaik) it's a Pioneer to the genre, going from just multiplayer like it's predecessors (Minecraft, Valheim etc.) to a full blown MMO. EA on the other hand is like the hundredth rehash of the same 25 year old MMORPG formula, and not a very original one IMO. Apart from innovation, the sandbox/base building genre in general is WAY bigger then that of old school MMOs.
EA also has a lot of competition, from actual old MMOs like Elder Scrolls Online and LOTRO that are very cheap or even f2p and new titles like Throne and Liberty.
And lastly: 100k (or 10k, probably even 1k) new players at once would be a complete disaster, as EA is IMO poorly set up to handle big player numbers (long respawns, only small number of quest mobs, drops that don't count for the whole group, dungeons that support only a handful of groups max, poor performance with 50+ people on screen). They'd end up with a lot of refunds, and a ton of bad reviews.

 

[Elloa]

We are considering STEAM. We are not certain we can pull it off, though. We need to finish to develop some important content before to get to it anyway. I can promise you that *Embers Adrift* will not be released on Steam by Christmas (unless miracles. We never know.. Christmas is the season, isn't it...)

Thank you for the very kind words @Fyredancer

 

[Fyredancer]

Sure, Pax Dei has some great points - perhaps I was a bit harsh :
* the most beautiful huge open world I've ever explored - grassy fields, rocky outcrops, nooks and crannies, misty forests, lakes and rivers, mysterious ruins - and totally real plants and shrooms, superb; (but not the metal nodes which stand out like triple canine testes.) I happen to like wandering large lovely worlds - having great fun in Pax Dei for that.
* rich complex crafting
* big fun building
* great potential for a large long lasting game with many facets.

But :
I fear they have done themselves a disservice by releasing too early. By the time real 1.0 comes along there will have been so many alphas/updates/patches that the interest will have rather faded, leaking away some each time. And frankly it's still quite buggy and clunky. The devs don't communicate well, and sadly the community has turned a little sour. So it's a fairly average STEAM EA experience.
Here's a comment from their Discord : "Well, given my 30 years of experience as a professional videogame QA tester, I am fully accustomed to zero communication from the dev team and months without fixes to easy issues, because that is the industry."

STEAM has a HUGE number of games - most of them are 100% craptastic, some are OK but in Early Release, but only a very few are really good and fully released.

Embers has quality and is fairly complete now - with a small skilled team who love their work and communicate well - not a common thing. Design ideas that are smart and different. Notably - you guys have great communication with us, answer requests, but stick to your Vision. You stand out as a beacon of quality amongst a vast sea of mediocrity. Go For It ! I love you all.

Of course a small niche game on STEAM will mean many don't like it, but it also means a vastly larger pool of players. April is US holidays ? June-ish in Europe ? Could work.

Hey - you know that was a genuine quote from Aristophanes, right ? I love this game so much I spent the last 2 years reading all the old Greek and Roman writers just for a good quote haha

Here's a followup to the original flare :

"When the flame had died down, he spread the Embers"
Homer, The Illiad, Book IX.​

Yes, I'm an old oddball.

 

[Keiban]

I fear they have done themselves a disservice by releasing too early. By the time real 1.0 comes along there will have been so many alphas/updates/patches that the interest will have rather faded,

Maybe, but that's not a given. I'd say it's less of a problem to go too early into Early Access then to actually release too early. One example would be Last Epoch, which was in Early Access for an eternity (2019-2024), but had a HUGE launch.

 

[x1101011x]

EA also has a lot of competition, from actual old MMOs like Elder Scrolls Online and LOTRO that are very cheap or even f2p and new titles like Throne and Liberty.

Did you play Throne and Liberty? Because I did, and it's not competition at all.

In 13 hours of play, getting to lvl 21, I never interacted with another player other than having them tag a mob before me in an "event" that's "kill as many things as you can in this boring and insanely densely populated field of mobs". On the other hand, almost every single mechanic in Embers Adrift is built around immersion and social interaction.

Then, I ran my first dungeon, which was hit your abilities as fast as you can. The game started glitching, I kept teleporting to the entrance, and no other players or enemies were visible. I asked about it in party chat and got zero response. They wiped a couple times on the last boss, and they said, "Hey, where are you? Get over here!" I told them again that the game was glitching and that I had already told them this. They never responded. They finally cleared the boss, and I got no reward due to low contribution.

Are those the players you're hoping to attract by going to Steam? Because personally I don't want to play with them. I get far more quality play with 11 people online in Embers Adrift than with literally hundreds of players around me in Throne and Liberty.

 

[Keiban]

Did you play Throne and Liberty?

Not yet, as I won't bother with it on a GTX 670. But I will in the next few days, as my new parts just arrived today

Because I did, and it's not competition at all.
In 13 hours of play, getting to lvl 21

So it managed to shave off 13+ hours from Embers No. 1 Fan but you won't recognize it as competitor? Funny.

And to the social aspect: Well, it's like most modern MMORPGs, the leveling is pretty fast and easy, it's basically a prolonged tutorial to teach you the game mechanics, skills, story etc.
The socializing happens mainly at the endgame, where the difficulty rises and you need a competent and communicating group + guild.
I'm not really surprised nobody responded in your dungeon run; what was there even to say for them? They can't do anything about your problems, you either can fix them yourself or you are out of luck and have to try again another time.

 

[x1101011x]

So it managed to shave off 13+ hours from Embers No. 1 Fan but you won't recognize it as competitor? Funny.

It didn't though. I haven't played EA since the last patch; I'm waiting for the Halloween decorations and GM events to go away.

I'm not really surprised nobody responded in your dungeon run; what was there even to say for them?

They could say, "Oh yeah, that happened to me; I fixed it by..." Or, you know, they could just acknowledge that they understood I was having an issue, so I could try relogging because I didn't know if they would/could kick me from the group if I suddenly appeared disconnected. They could also, you know, wait like one second while I relog before starting the boss (which locks people out if they aren't in the area when it starts).

The point is, though, that they were so absorbed in themselves that they didn't notice I messaged them or even that I wasn't there until they wiped TWICE.

Well, it's like most modern MMORPGs

This is literally my point: it's not competition because it's a different genre. There is literally nowhere else I can get an old-school experience like Embers Adrift right now, not even from old-school games like Everquest (which I never played back in the day but tried to play about a month before trying the EA free trial).

 

[Fyredancer]

Great news,

From the Ashes of DR, Embers Adrift will rise like the Phoenix.
(Being sold down the Digital River has perhaps helped bring in players who heard the story. Quite a few newbies lately.)

Steam should be a great boost for the game - and hopefully the established friendly community will smooth out the rough edges of the Steam Hordes.

(Meanwhile Pax Dei had its Patch Day, and the result is rather less than whelming - the world shaken up, the natives restless, 1.0 a distant hope.)

You've got a solid game and a solid reputation.
Optimistic for 2025.

"Now it rages with fiery steam"
The Polyhistor of Solinus, 29.1​

 

[Ulfberht]

We are considering STEAM. We are not certain we can pull it off, though. We need to finish to develop some important content before to get to it anyway. I can promise you that *Embers Adrift* will not be released on Steam by Christmas (unless miracles. We never know.. Christmas is the season, isn't it...)

Thank you for the very kind words @Fyredancer

Is the important content secret?

 

[emberral]

Uhm, yes? That's what Steam Early Access is expected to be. Many games stay in Early Access for years. Did you really expect a finished game and like a few days headstart?

Bad design is obvious, even in EA. It's very apparent to those of us who have played MMO's for decades when a game is dead before it even arrives.

 

[emberral]

Maybe, but that's not a given. I'd say it's less of a problem to go too early into Early Access then to actually release too early. One example would be Last Epoch, which was in Early Access for an eternity (2019-2024), but had a HUGE launch.
View attachment 3586

I honestly have to wonder if you've ever paid attention to games that go EA and are clearly not ready for it. People on Steam are brutal and will negative bomb review a game into oblivion. Developers can say hey it's early access. Not complete. We are working on it. You'll still see thumbs down reviews in Steam about how the game is incomplete, not fun, etc. Thinking that the majority of the gamers out there actually pay attention and respond accordingly is the real naivete here.

 

[emberral]

Did you play Throne and Liberty? Because I did, and it's not competition at all.

In 13 hours of play, getting to lvl 21, I never interacted with another player other than having them tag a mob before me in an "event" that's "kill as many things as you can in this boring and insanely densely populated field of mobs". On the other hand, almost every single mechanic in Embers Adrift is built around immersion and social interaction.

Then, I ran my first dungeon, which was hit your abilities as fast as you can. The game started glitching, I kept teleporting to the entrance, and no other players or enemies were visible. I asked about it in party chat and got zero response. They wiped a couple times on the last boss, and they said, "Hey, where are you? Get over here!" I told them again that the game was glitching and that I had already told them this. They never responded. They finally cleared the boss, and I got no reward due to low contribution.

Are those the players you're hoping to attract by going to Steam? Because personally I don't want to play with them. I get far more quality play with 11 people online in Embers Adrift than with literally hundreds of players around me in Throne and Liberty.

T&L utterly sucked. It is in competition with other games that suck for the most sucky of sucky games of the year award.

 

[emberral]

Not yet, as I won't bother with it on a GTX 670. But I will in the next few days, as my new parts just arrived today


So it managed to shave off 13+ hours from Embers No. 1 Fan but you won't recognize it as competitor? Funny.

And to the social aspect: Well, it's like most modern MMORPGs, the leveling is pretty fast and easy, it's basically a prolonged tutorial to teach you the game mechanics, skills, story etc.
The socializing happens mainly at the endgame, where the difficulty rises and you need a competent and communicating group + guild.
I'm not really surprised nobody responded in your dungeon run; what was there even to say for them? They can't do anything about your problems, you either can fix them yourself or you are out of luck and have to try again another time.

The person obviously tried to give T&L an honest chance. I didn't give it an hour and I was done. Crap is pretty evident early on. Your own words prove the point though. It's fast leveling, boring game play, easy with no challenge. That's not the market Embers Adrift is competing with.