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Feedback Let the Developers Design the game to their vision

is this feedback?

Kaeolin

Well-Known Member
Here's an idea. Accept that things are as they intended to be designed. Let them move forward towards completing the first version of the game. For weeks now, people have been dissecting the beginning game. Seems like everybody is an expert game developer. They haven't completed 1/3 of the game, and because it doesn't match your vision of a MMORPG, people are giving their opinion on gameplay that strays away from the vision that Game Devs have stated they want to go. The money you paid, allows you to test the game and provide feedback based on that test. However, it doesn't give you the right to complain about the game not matching your vision. If it was your vision, you'd be making the game. All I'm saying is let's see what they put out before we nitpick it to death. Test the game, report bugs/errors, and provide feedback on your experience. It's up to the Game Studio to decide if they have enough feedback on a specific item, that they want to change it. It just feels like for weeks now, the devs have spent a large amount of time responding to feedback, trying to keep people happy, and not really moving forward with the game development. All the changes they've made to improve the low level experience will again have to be balanced once we get to mid and end game.
 

Kittik

Well-Known Member
You're right. As a community and the ones providing feedback on if something feels broken, boring, our out of place needs to be streamlined. I'm as big as a culpirt as anyone in regards to saying things but not providing means of how I think something should be improved.

But as a community we're here to provide feedback, but our feedback as of late has been more of a "do this instead" type of suggestion rather than a "this feels bad" comment and I, like many others, need to quell our desire to make what feels wrong into a completely different monster.
 

Pelirow

Active Member
One of the biggest things I appreciate about Undone is that he'll listen, but is incredibly conservative and is anything but knee-jerk with his decisions to change things. It's the best sort of dev to throw feedback at, and I get the impression he prefers everyone throw the entire book of constructive criticism out there and he'll filter out what is useful for the overall state of the game. Some of these systems are still in an iterative and experimental state where SHS has an idea of their bottom line, but are using beta as a method to determine what direction to take.

I agree that sometimes it feels like there is too much feedback for too little amount of actual gameplay, but I also get the impression SHS wants to get the 1-25 experience to a state they're happy with before tackling 25-50, as the earlier content is likely a springboard for how to develop the later content. This is also the time to really mess around with numbers and configurations to see if something works better than expected, although I concede trying to get too cute with tuning can be a problem. Balance for the sake of balance usually doesn't do much.

The key, as both Kaeo and Kittik said, is that we as testers should not only be trying to point out if something feels wrong, but why it feels wrong and thoughts about what would make those feel "less wrong." Also, doing so constructively. It's easy to whine in comparison to taking the time to explain.
 

AdricLives

Administrator
Stormhaven Studios
A lot of times "trust the vision" is used to dismiss criticism and that's definitely NOT what we want, but I think the general sentiment here is spot on. We don't necessarily want to argue about why you prefer X over Y, but underneath these discussion is usually some core point of friction which we try to tease out of feedback to address. And I think the quality of the feedback and discussion can make that process of finding the friction point quicker.
 

MrDDT

Active Member
I know often times while a game is in beta, it can feel like nothing, but bad things are said about the game because people are mostly pointing issues or bugs etc.


I think that is likely the feeling of what the issue is when reading through the forums. I think people are very happy with the direction and I think they should continue on their direction of the game. That's why we are all here.

Keep up the good work guys.
 

RazorBrains

Well-Known Member
I completely disagree with the OP. I don't see how a game can get too much feedback. I feel confident the devs can filter good ideas from bad ones. If these discussions get to long, they can always assign someone they trust to read and filter the ideas back to them. So telling people to shut up and deal with it is EXTREMELY bad advice.

Take a game like ICARUS where they got absolutely trashed on steam once they release. Now after the fact they are finally making simple changes that could have easily been made prior to release and are having to back track on all these hardcore mechanics that the general population couldn't live with. Why did this happen? Because they obvious didn't get enough feedback from the "general" community and was getting feedback solely from a few people in a "bubble" that were out of touch with their customer base. So a game can either get their "negative" feedback before they release when they can still change or tweak it or they can get that same "negative" feedback after they release and watch their steam rating and review sites drop to low levels.

If I was a dev, I would want a breadth of ideas and solutions from various different people, so I can make good decisions, rather than think I am making something everyone wants just to find out after I build it that everyone hates that.

Burying your head in the sand is not a solution.
 

Kaeolin

Well-Known Member
I completely disagree with the OP. I don't see how a game can get too much feedback. I feel confident the devs can filter good ideas from bad ones. If these discussions get to long, they can always assign someone they trust to read and filter the ideas back to them. So telling people to shut up and deal with it is EXTREMELY bad advice.

Take a game like ICARUS where they got absolutely trashed on steam once they release. Now after the fact they are finally making simple changes that could have easily been made prior to release and are having to back track on all these hardcore mechanics that the general population couldn't live with. Why did this happen? Because they obvious didn't get enough feedback from the "general" community and was getting feedback solely from a few people in a "bubble" that were out of touch with their customer base. So a game can either get their "negative" feedback before they release when they can still change or tweak it or they can get that same "negative" feedback after they release and watch their steam rating and review sites drop to low levels.

If I was a dev, I would want a breadth of ideas and solutions from various different people, so I can make good decisions, rather than think I am making something everyone wants just to find out after I build it that everyone hates that.

Burying your head in the sand is not a solution.
Feedback isn't what I'm talking about. Feedback is good. I'm talking about those who are trying to completely change things because the game doesn't match their personal vision of what the game should be. I'd like to see the Devs stick to their original goal. Good or bad. Icarus is a good example where the game was extremely difficult and unforgiving. I played Icarus from day 1 and loved it. The Devs here are looking for that niche community that wants that same hard core feel from back in the day. Plenty of times in the past they've stated their intentions and lately it seems that a few loud voices have forced them to change direction. The most specific change recently has been Mob difficulty changes. Things are so difficult to judge until you can see the entire scope. Granting more experience for mobs has directly impacted how people level. The question I wonder now is what happens at 30. How will these adjustments impact the later content experience. Until we can provide feedback that is a 1-50 experience, we won't know. These changes are taking away from their time working on more content for the rest of the game.

TLDR: I'm not trying to say don't provide feedback, I'm saying provide feedback on what they've produced and don't try to offer your own content as a replacement. Let them ask you for ideas on how to change something.
 

MrDDT

Active Member
TLDR: I'm not trying to say don't provide feedback, I'm saying provide feedback on what they've produced and don't try to offer your own content as a replacement. Let them ask you for ideas on how to change something.
Isn't the feedback and bugs forums meant for this though?
I mean if not wouldn't it just be "bugs' forum?

I find its the other way normally, I've been in lots of alphas and beta's and one thing the devs always want is a solution to the issue and not just you saying "I don't like arrows in game"
That is feedback but not very helpful.
 

RazorBrains

Well-Known Member
Feedback isn't what I'm talking about. Feedback is good. I'm talking about those who are trying to completely change things because the game doesn't match their personal vision of what the game should be. I'd like to see the Devs stick to their original goal. Good or bad. Icarus is a good example where the game was extremely difficult and unforgiving. I played Icarus from day 1 and loved it. The Devs here are looking for that niche community that wants that same hard core feel from back in the day. Plenty of times in the past they've stated their intentions and lately it seems that a few loud voices have forced them to change direction. The most specific change recently has been Mob difficulty changes. Things are so difficult to judge until you can see the entire scope. Granting more experience for mobs has directly impacted how people level. The question I wonder now is what happens at 30. How will these adjustments impact the later content experience. Until we can provide feedback that is a 1-50 experience, we won't know. These changes are taking away from their time working on more content for the rest of the game.

TLDR: I'm not trying to say don't provide feedback, I'm saying provide feedback on what they've produced and don't try to offer your own content as a replacement. Let them ask you for ideas on how to change something.

Well you are saying you loved Icarus from day 1? Well on day 1 Icarus had massive negative reviews. Now after fixing those basic problems Icarus are now starting to get positive reviews. So maybe you dont represent a very big customer base to the game? If Icarus would have gotten better feedback early on, and implemented the changes they have been now, instead of only 2k players they could have 200k players. I think this is potentially a huge problems for their dev team. I guarantee that ICARUS dev team wishes they would have implemented these simple changes to the game prior to release so they could have made a boatload of money instead of eating crow and be forced to change their game just to barely stay alive.

So people that want the devs to change the game are basically trying to communicate what a good game to them is. Its likely for everyone one of those people there are 1000 more people just like them. Its up to the devs to figure out which community they want to listen to ultimately. But not getting that feedback at all limits their choices.
 

RazorBrains

Well-Known Member
Isn't the feedback and bugs forums meant for this though?
I mean if not wouldn't it just be "bugs' forum?

I find its the other way normally, I've been in lots of alphas and beta's and one thing the devs always want is a solution to the issue and not just you saying "I don't like arrows in game"
That is feedback but not very helpful.
Yes I hear that all the time, People always saying things like don't complain if you don't have a solution. Its weird to hear someone say don't complain if you have a solution. Very opposite of what is normally asked for.
 

Kaeolin

Well-Known Member
I think you are confusing Feedback with "I want to change the game to match my vision". I'd expect a statement like I don't like Arrows to include a reason they feel there is a problem. Long posts that have massive changes in coding just take away from the actual development of the game. I don't know the actual financial state of the studio, but it was my understanding they have to release this year or they run out of money.

I get the comparison to Icarus, and you only have 1 chance to release a game. I had my say and a Dev has responded with what they are looking for. Ultimately it's up to them to determine the success or failure of the game.
 

RazorBrains

Well-Known Member
I get the comparison to Icarus, and you only have 1 chance to release a game. I had my say and a Dev has responded with what they are looking for. Ultimately it's up to them to determine the success or failure of the game.

Yep I get that, but that game pretty much failed, I doubt they wanted to fail on purpose. So they had to be disconnected from the larger community. Obviously they were willing to make the needed changes, because they are making those changes now. Unfortunately its a little to late, like you said 1 chance to make a first impression. If they would have known what they knew now, they would have made those changes. I wasn't in the beta for that game, I wish I would have been, because I agree with most of the changes they are making now and would have given done my best to explain that was where the community was at.
 

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
I think what @Kaeolin is trying to say is that there is subtle but hugely important difference between "this mechanic sucks here is how you fix it" vs "this mechanic feels bad, and here is why I think it feels bad, and what I think might make it feel less bad". The first type of feedback is still helpful but it takes more time for us to understand and is generally less constructive. And after a while it can start to wear thin bordering on exhausting. Developers are humans too :)

@Pelirow hit the nail on the head about how I view feedback. I want all of it. Send me all the critiques in the world. It's our job as developers to take feedback and run it through our own machinery to decide what needs addressing and what does not. @AdricLives and I spend a lot of time dissecting and trying to strip away the layers of veneer to really understand the potential issues. Our goal is to get to the core of what raised the issue in the first place and brainstorm how we might best address it all while considering how it might impact the rest of the game. There are MANY moving parts in a game such as Embers Adrift with MANY variables to consider. A seemingly simple task can end up taking hours if not days to perform so we have to be extremely selective with how we spend our development time. The more constructive the feedback you provide, the easier it is for us to consider and make actionable decisions on.
 

sojournerx

New Member
As the one who posted about arrows specifically, and since it was cited here, can't help but feel like I'm being pointed out as part of the problem... but alright. I wholeheartedly agree with @RazorBrains -- this feels like an attempt to shut down feedback, not from devs themselves necessarily but white knights charging in 'to the rescue'.

Given that, it doesn't seem like there's much point in posting feedback; which is apparently what some here want, unless it's obsequious fawning towards the developers and the game itself.
 

Elloa

Administrator
Stormhaven Studios
I just want Rhonda to spell Alendael's name right. :p
You don't get it. It's not misspelled. Rhonda just can't pronounce his name right. She also doesn't really give a shit!

Rhonda: "yeah the bard over there. Alendal-dude, the one doing plingplong with HIS FECKING MANDOLINE all day long!"
 

RazorBrains

Well-Known Member
I personally think the game is a lot of fun and there is alot of great things you did already or I wouldn't be here still playing, maybe that's not the attitude you want from a beta tester but that's the truth, I didn't join this to waste my time doing boring testing stuff. This game is enjoyable so I am continuing to play and test it. I also know most of the players I have grouped with really enjoy the game and are seeing the magic formula of old school fun social grouping mmo brewing in this game. You deserve a pat on the back for what you have done so far. On the other hand I also know there is a bit more work to be done to appeal to the larger audience.

I think what @Kaeolin is trying to say is that there is subtle but hugely important difference between "this mechanic sucks here is how you fix it" vs "this mechanic feels bad, and here is why I think it feels bad, and what I think might make it feel less bad".

To me both those statements above are indistinguishable. One is less tactful but they both communicate the same result. Some people just lack empathy, and others are not good communicators. I don't think you should take peoples negative feedback personally. Its hard not to be defensive when you have bled your heart and soul into a project, but you have to just let it roll off. People didn't pay money for this game just to come here and waste time posting to piss you off. They obviously were hoping this game was good enough for them to play. They are trying to communicate in their own way.

I would want to hear all the feedback regardless of how its stated. If someone breaks forum rules do to personal attack then that's a diff issue. Anything said now is going to be 100 times worse later after release. The feedback will come whether its here or on another site or after launch, its unavoidable, where and when would you prefer to hear it? I think on here and early is better than later everywhere else.

If the devs are feeling overwhelmed in the forums then there are tools they can use to manage it. Examples they can just let the forum posters hash it out some until more ideas come out. Also they don't have defend or go back and forth about their product. If they see things they like or don't like, they can just make simple statements like "we like some of the ideas and are considering these for the future". If a topic served its purpose or gets derailed they can lock it. There are plenty of other tools to manage their time.

I personally like the devs working directly with us to solve problems, but also don't want to distract them from fixing problems and developing the game.

Lastly I am not calling anyone particular out here, as I don't know anyone's intent. However I feel the devs need to take into account that some people don't have the health of the game in mind when they offer solutions. Some cheerleaders like the game as is and don't even care if the game has more than 100 people playing it. I personally want to see the game succeed, so I am offering suggestions that I feel based on my long experience in MMO's that I believe is best for the health of the game. I want to see this game be very successful where 100,000 people are playing. This is good for mmo pve genre, mmo pve grouping games which I really enjoy. It would also be good for this game so devs can continue making additional content that I might like to play in the future.
 

sojournerx

New Member
To me both those statements above are indistinguishable. One is less tactful but they both communicate the same result. Some people just lack empathy, and others are not good communicators. I don't think you should take peoples negative feedback personally. Its hard not to be defensive when you have bled your heart and soul into a project, but you have to just let it roll off. People didn't pay money for this game just to come here and waste time posting to piss you off. They obviously were hoping this game was good enough for them to play. They are trying to communicate in their own way.
Thank you for pointing this out in particular. We still paid into the beta to try things out, and when I was wrong to come in guns blazing with a bad attitude, I apologized and I've kept my word to be mindful of said attitude going forward. People are looking for a game that recaptures some of that familiar, comfortable feeling that we had in older games; something that is lacking in newer, flashier, entries in the genre. Lots of these newer games lack the soul and heart? of their predecessors and I know at least for me, I was willing to pay into a beta that I think might be able to capture some of that. For others to come in and dictate what should and shouldn't be written up and asked about, just seems so counter intuitive and a bit insulting given we all paid the same price to jump in and test the waters.
 

RazorBrains

Well-Known Member
As the one who posted about arrows specifically, and since it was cited here, can't help but feel like I'm being pointed out as part of the problem... but alright. I wholeheartedly agree with @RazorBrains -- this feels like an attempt to shut down feedback, not from devs themselves necessarily but white knights charging in 'to the rescue'.

Given that, it doesn't seem like there's much point in posting feedback; which is apparently what some here want, unless it's obsequious fawning towards the developers and the game itself.

Keep giving that feedback and stay active in the dialog. The devs have said they want to hear it. Don't let some rando discourage you. They probably had good intentions and are just very empathic and feel bad for the devs. Shutting down feedback is a bad solution and it seems from what was stated above the devs agree with that. Its up to the devs to filter out what is best for the game. The more they hear the better decisions they can make. I know the devs are listening as I have seen it first hand in the short time I have been playing. They are actually quite responsive even if they sometimes seem a bit defensive.

A side point is that an active forum is good for the game. So just on that note more posts are good for the game.
 

Xavure

Active Member
As the one who posted about arrows specifically, and since it was cited here, can't help but feel like I'm being pointed out as part of the problem... but alright. I wholeheartedly agree with @RazorBrains -- this feels like an attempt to shut down feedback, not from devs themselves necessarily but white knights charging in 'to the rescue'.

Given that, it doesn't seem like there's much point in posting feedback; which is apparently what some here want, unless it's obsequious fawning towards the developers and the game itself.
I personally think every feedback is important, but I'll admit the tone you started with was a little off track. But at the end of the day, you pointed out an irritant, that will be the same for a mass amount of players upon release and I'm pretty sure it will be adjusted for that matter. And this is just to demonstrate how feedbacks are important, even when the explanation/tone is bad.

However, keep in mind that everyone is human and have respect for each other's opinion in that matter.