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Embers Adrift

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Feedback In-game Map

is this feedback?

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
The current in-game map doesn't work for me. I can't see where I am and there isn't enough natural waypoints to get a sense of direction. Adding some sort of compass would help correct this if it's on purpose that I can't see myself on the map.
Hi @Kailea thanks for your feedback! We've had numerous discussions on the inclusion of a compass over the past several months. To keep everyone up to speed on our thoughts I made a quick FAQ post addressing this question specifically.

Originally we were not going to include a map at all. We later found that an approximate map that the player could uncover via exploration was an interesting way to give the players more insight into the zone layout. You are also correct that there are no GPS markers on the map; that is intended.
 
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Thieron

New Member
An in-game compass that you purchase could be a possible implementation. Require it to be used from a quickslot and it just tells you which direction you are facing. Similar to Sense Heading in EQ. The down side is it uses a quickslot, but it would help with traveling. I kind of like the idea of giving up another resource to gain this benefit at times.
 

GeneralK

Member
This is the first game in a Long time that I felt I needed to learn landmarks and I consider that a good thing for immersion, it brings you closer to the world.

If a person has only played MMOs with GPS/compass before then it's almost like a new way of thinking about the game.

Some tricks are that it is a zone still and there are boundaries. If you can uncover enough map to figure where landmarks/paths/etc are in relation to the walls, you can navigate. (That windmill blade faces roughly south or that road goes North to South or If I'm at a wall and I walk perpendicular to the wall I will hit the road that goes NorthToSouth regardless of which wall I'm on, stuff like that and more)

Getting lost in the dark is fun to me, no sarcasm.

Thanks!
 

RazorBrains

Well-Known Member
So what percent of players does this feature appeal too? No icon marker on maps and no compass is the VERY minimum necessary for a modern game. Not having a basic compass is so very fringe I doubt it would even appeal to 1% of the retail player base that actually likes these kind of games. This is such a basic necessity that will exclude so much of the player base its really a no brainer to have it. Having a map without a position icon is so 1980's. For casuals being forced to navigate via mountains is a /quit situation.

I already know this feature will be added by release or shortly after release, no way the devs are not going to put this in. Because everyone with a tiny bit of common sense knows that if they don't have a compass and a dot on the map, this game will be negative reviewed to oblivion due to this 1 feature alone. Heck I would go further and say the compass, dot on map is so needed its just straight up automatic no brainer. The real decision needs to be whether to add a minimap, not having that is hard enough, this is in ADDITION to a basic compass and dot on the map with your position.

No clue what the thought process is for not having this, but its straight up alienating 99.9% of the player base.

And no you are not going to be able to charge for a compass. LOL just going to piss everyone off. I can see the memes now.
 

Kaeolin

Well-Known Member
In Undone's FAQ About the compass he's indicated he has plans for this. I'd like to see what they plan before continuing any discussion on it. My own opinion is already known.
 

Pelirow

Active Member
I'd say 99.9% is an extreme exaggeration. I've talked to people outside of Embers who are mainly turned off by lack of magic users and lack of race variety, and those same people like the minimalistic map and fog of war on the map to start.
 

RazorBrains

Well-Known Member
I'd say 99.9% is an extreme exaggeration. I've talked to people outside of Embers who are mainly turned off by lack of magic users and lack of race variety, and those same people like the minimalistic map and fog of war on the map to start.
Fog of war to start is separate from dot on map IMO. Just saying, I don't think most mind fog of war prior to discovery. Never heard anyone say they didn't want a map, you can unbind the map key if you want to play without knowing where you are? Somehow I doubt even the most hardcore are doing that. Such a small percent would even consider doing that. Maybe some real extreme survivalist would, but doubt it.

Why do people try to impose this on others when there is options for them to just ignore the feature? I am not here telling people they have to be forced to use these features. Sure make a compass with a checkbox to remove it from the User Interface. Make a checkbox to allow dots/location not to show up on map? Everyone wins then?

You would think if people who "say" they really want this minimalist play, would take full advantage and turn these features off. But yeah that's not happening. People want to impose these type of tedious mechanics on others, but not on themselves. Its probably because they play so much they know the area, but laugh at the newbs complaining in chat. Its about inflicting tediousness on others but not themselves.
 

Kaeolin

Well-Known Member
Why do people try to impose this on others when there is options for them to just ignore the feature
You need to get more people posting on the forums about this. Right now there's only 1 or 2 people that seem to have this strong stance about maps/compasses etc. Most just don't care. Bigger issues to deal with at this point. Like Pel, I hear more complaints about lack of magic and other race options. I tell most to wait and see how the Ember system works out. Aside from a few here on the forum, I haven't heard one person talk about a lack of a map/compass. It occasionally gets brought up in Voice Chat in groups. I say wait and see what Undone has come up with. As I said above.
 

GeneralK

Member
I would counter that a large majority of players that are looking for an old-school, challenging, slower paced MMO such as this has been advertised as, do not want the GPS/compass.

You think it's tedious but we think it is immersive, let me give an example a shot.

Players will take the most efficient means possible almost always. I myself as a fan of no GPS/compass would not turn it off because it would put me at a disadvantage and not be the most efficient means. If there are GPS/Compass then what happens is players stare at the dot/arrow instead of being a part of the world.

I would ask you to please think about those other games and ask yourself how much time you've spent looking at things in a zone like cabins, sign posts, twists in the road, what the wall looks like from such and such spot. More than likely you spend the majority of your time on Auto-Run staring at the mini map, or if there is not a mini-map you're still on auto-run pressing M here and there to check on your direction.

Staring at the dot/arrow also Shrinks the size of the world because you are staring at a map or UI element instead of looking around you at the world. It make the world seem to be comprised of only the destinations that you've arrived at and the rest is just a blur of follow the glowing trail.

Forcing players to pay attention make it feel less like playing a game and more like living in the world. There is so much to be gained by the play experience of living in the world and feeling present rather than GPS. It makes it feel like an adventure instead of a quest hub with Siri saying take the next right. Getting lost adds respect for the world. A good player that has a dungeon memorized is valued for their knowledge and leadership and pulling skills etc.

If the concern is the mainstream MMO playerbase then we may as well start adding quest markers, glowing trails, instant travel all over the place, zerg-fest through instanced dungeons, dungeon finder auto-grouping to go with it, and a cash shop....
If we add all of those then what is the point of Embers? Just go play any other MMO that exists now

Edit:
The FAQ post from Undone mentions the skydome so clearly the navigation will be something like using the sun to tell which way is which. In EQ1 vanilla the clouds always traveled the same direction and if you knew that you could figure out which way you were going hehe.
 
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Rev

Well-Known Member
20+ years later, I could still probably name every zone in Antonica inNorrath.
 
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GeneralK

Member
20+ years later, I could still probably name every zone in Norrath.
Hah nice!
yea I could probably zone in to Guk and lead you down to the Frenzy camp 20 years later :)

It's the difference between a theme-park on the rails quest hub game and a challenging world experience.
When I read the requests for GPS I think they either 1) Have never played a game with that challenge so haven't learned or simply don't like it or 2) want an easier game that is less exploration and more zerg
Which is totally fine, but is that Embers?
 

RazorBrains

Well-Known Member
Well the problem is the competing issue of the vision. What is the real vision of this game? Are they trying to create a scenery solo player sim or are they trying to create a difficult PVE social grouping game?

If you are trying to build a PVE grouping game with difficult content. They groups need to be able to form quickly and efficiently. Things like ease of movement, teleports, summons, recalls need to be implemented to facilitate that vision.

If you are trying to build a scenery sim, where you run solo trying to explore the terrain then and just sit and watch the environment. They you need to increase the graphics, build more fauna and add in some viewing features like binoculars, add housing, put in fishing and stuff like that.

This map and other features like long running distances are directly conflicting with a social grouping games prime directive. Most people have around 30-90minutes per play session. How can you form a group and have quality play, if you are lost? Add to that the long run times and what happens to the group content? How does the group feel if the player they want to add is lost so its preventing them from having a full group and therefor they all have to wait until said player arrives. All these things that prevent people from grouping makes this game even more niche.

If you want a scenery sim where you run around solo in a world for hours at a time being lost, I am sure many solo players games will do that better. The average PVE loot gamer is not going to stay long in a game where their entire game session is spent running around lost. I think these devs need to do some serious investigation of how long it takes a group in Dryfoot to meet with people in Meadowlands with only a 1 level seperation and form a group and do content. In a play session of 1 hour per night, how much time of that will be in a group? In the above case that equals ZERO.

It really sounds more like you guys want a SOLO game.

TLDR this game really needs to figure out what kind of game it wants to be. Because right now forming groups and doing group content is extremely difficult and takes a LONG time. Outside a few alpha/beta testers this is not going to appeal the a larger gaming audience.
 

RazorBrains

Well-Known Member
You need to get more people posting on the forums about this. Right now there's only 1 or 2 people that seem to have this strong stance about maps/compasses etc. Most just don't care. Bigger issues to deal with at this point. Like Pel, I hear more complaints about lack of magic and other race options. I tell most to wait and see how the Ember system works out. Aside from a few here on the forum, I haven't heard one person talk about a lack of a map/compass. It occasionally gets brought up in Voice Chat in groups. I say wait and see what Undone has come up with. As I said above.
I think people who belong to the casual gaming class really need to speak up for the themselves. Because Alpha/Betas usually attract hardcore people and those dominate the forums. This is why so many of these indie games fail because they are in a bubble and listening to a few hardcore players. Then the game comes out and the Devs are completely caught off guard by the casual gamers response to the game. As said above people are talking about this in chat, in global and complaining but not mentioning anything here on forums. The devs need to hear that side.

The part about waiting and seeing until after its built. Yeah this is just really bad development process to me. Its extremely time inefficient to build a system that will later need to be removed or is completely ignored. From a management standpoint, they should be putting things into the game that are permanent and are worth the time to build in the first place. These systems need to have a good amount of thought behind them so that they enhance the core vision of the game and not detract from it. Spending time building bad systems is extremely wasteful.
 

RazorBrains

Well-Known Member
Players will take the most efficient means possible almost always. I myself as a fan of no GPS/compass would not turn it off because it would put me at a disadvantage and not be the most efficient means. If there are GPS/Compass then what happens is players stare at the dot/arrow instead of being a part of the world.

Do you feel this way in real life? Do you want to prevent your neighbors from using a GPS in their car just because you have memorized the roads in your local city? Just because you don't need GPS why do you want to intrude on other games fun? What's really perplexing is you saying that if they offered navigation aids but allowed the player to you to turn it off or remove it from the hud, you wouldn't. So you wouldn't even remove the feature if they added it, how bad can it really be?

I would ask you to please think about those other games and ask yourself how much time you've spent looking at things in a zone like cabins, sign posts, twists in the road, what the wall looks like from such and such spot. More than likely you spend the majority of your time on Auto-Run staring at the mini map, or if there is not a mini-map you're still on auto-run pressing M here and there to check on your direction.

Look the graphics of this game are not great. For an indie game, I'm cool with it, because I'm not here for graphics. No I don't look at cabins or graphics details because they don't interest me. I don't even spend time in chairs admiring graphics or scenery details in any game let alone one with bad graphics. I am a pro PVE group player, that likes challenging PVE content. This is where my fun is coming from. I can spend many hours in groups, raiding, killing mobs all day and have a good time. Pretty much anything that is taking away from that is likely not going to be the best entertainment value. Sometimes I like to explore new places and uncover new territory, especially to find new locations to PVE. No compass is only a disadvantage to my playtime.

Honestly its not even about me, or most the people on these forums, because they represent the hardcore of the hardcore of PVE. People that play Alpha/Beta's are generally not casual. If this game cannot appeal to a bunch of casuals then this game will not exist long. That doesn't mean it needs to be retail WoW dumbed down. It does need some QoL features thou, at least a very bare minimum that casuals will REQUIRE to have any enjoyment. Appealing to a bandwidth of casuals is good for everyone, so the developers will have some money to continue development and remain in business. Because I like grouping, it requires other people to play the game, so yeah I am 100% concerned this game is putting in features that will kill itself.
 

Rev

Well-Known Member
I can guarantee in the end, they do what they feel is best. I complained when a map was added, when arrows pointing you to group and bag were added, when big glowing lights shoot out of your bag on the ground. All things that were added over time. I still argue over the night. They take it all in and have done what fits their vision of what they are trying to do but also make it fun. I am sure it is a daily compromise of doing this over that.