Feedback General thoughts after my first weekend.

[CypherWulf]

Background: I'm a 40 y/o stay-at-home dad, who played FFXI and WoW in their early years, and have been looking for a game that combines the crunchiness and difficulty of those with some of the modern game design sensibilities for a long time. I received a key through the Illigitimus guild on Project: Gorgon, but hadn't heard of this game before then. This past weekend has been the most fun I've had in an MMO in literal years. I made it to level 11 Marshal, 12 Prospector, and 12 Weapon-smith over the first weekend, and am quite happy with the pace of progression.

System: Ryzen 5 1600x, 4GB Geforce 1050Ti, 16 GB RAM.

I'll split my thoughts up into a few categories.

Graphics:​

The graphics are very well done, and make good use of the engine, however, as my computer is several years old, I had to turn off literally every graphical feature and turn every setting to minimum just to get the game to a playable state. My guildmates with much more powerful systems than mine also reported issues with getting acceptable performance out of the game, with turning shadows and transmission completely off the most commonly suggested remedies.
Once I was able to play the game, I rather enjoyed the world, the zones I was able to explore felt distinct from each other and felt natural. except for the fact that many of the trees are exactly the same model, it created a sense of sameness within the zone that made orienting myself very difficult. (more on that later).
The player and NPC models are... fine. They're what we've come to expect in terms of models, not out of the ballpark but not bad either. I do like how each piece of armor is placed on the model appropriately, so I could choose to wear a greave on the right or left character slot, and it would place it appropriately on the character, that's something I didn't expect to happen coming in (though I can't say I've seen any other game that treats bracers and greaves as separate items rather than as a pair). The animations could use some tuning though. Especially when using a 2h weapon, sometimes it looked like my character was swinging a wiffle bat, and sometimes it seemed that the maul weighed as much as she did.

System:​

I like the nods to tabletop roleplaying games that I saw, with damage listed in dice notation, and some skills granting advantage or disadvantage. To me, this had the effect of subtly reinforcing the more traditional RPG aspect of the game, which is wonderful. That said, there are times where doing so comes at the cost of readability. For example, I had a weapon that did 4D2+3 damage, and it took me nearly a minute to determine if it was an improvement over a weapon that did 3D3+2 damage. Showing the average DPS or at least the average damage on the tooltip could help with readability.
In areas with many players nearby, my frame rate would also drop to near-zero, leading me to have a great deal of difficulty when starting the game for the first time on Saturday morning, since so many other players were in the starting village. I'm not sure how much can be done in Unity's netcode to improve this, but perhaps adding a "maximum number of nearby players shown" option could assist with this.

Difficulty:​

The combat and dificulty are well tuned for groups, and the mix of abilities through the classes are very nice for encouraging a variety of party members, and even a partial group can find a place to effectively farm. Solo however is a completely different animal. In my experience, and what I've heard from my guildmates, soloing is so difficult and tedious that it is generally not worth even trying. Beyond harvesting in areas that are signifigantly lower level than you, there is nothing that wyou can do to make meaningful progression without at least one other player to play together with. I want to stress this, it is a good thing that the game emphasizes group play. That is where MMOs shine, especially one with a combat system like this. Group play should definitely be encouraged and be the preferred way to play the game. However, especially for an MMO without a gigantic playerbase, there needs to be some content that can be progressed on without forming a group.
I'm not saying remove group content, or even de-emphasize it. IMO the biggest reason to have solo-friendly content even in a group-focused game is to give people something to do while they're forming a group. If someone logs in, and literally can't do anything for 10-20 minutes while they form a group, then they're going to log off before the next person who wants to play gets on, creating a vicious cycle of people logging off before the next potential groupmate logs in. Without a HUGE playerbase, and incredibly easy party finding, you're not going to break out of that unless you are able to keep that first player online long enough to form a group. There needs to be something meaningful that can be done solo so that you don't either have to schedule in advance your playtime or risk logging on, looking around, not finding anyone, and then logging off (leaving the next person to do the same).

Combat:​

The pace of combat is much slower than most modern MMOs, and I see this as a good thing, from both an accessability and a gameplay standpoint. Continuously mashing buttons for hours on end is one of the reasons that I can't play many games, My hands are not what they were in my youth, and I much prefer the tactical feel to combat in EA compared to the much faster paced skill rotations of WoW or GW2. Through the entire weekend, I didn't find myself in pain the way I might playing a long stretch of a game that requires continuous keyboard presses. This slower combat also allows for more time to think about what skills I am going to use, and to react in a more deliberate way.
The fact that the majority of classes are essentially hybrid classes allows for a great variety in group compositions, I was able to completely explore the Newhaven Central Veins dungeon with a party that had 2 defenders, one time with 3 supports, and another time with 1 defender, 1 support. Each time, the experience was different in how we approached the situation, but not significantly different in terms of difficulty.
The biggest issue with the combat system that I encountered was the difficulty presented with the weapon arc system combined with the fact that no skills are instant. Individually, those are not a problem, and feed well into the tactical nature of the game, but in situations where I was trying to engage a target that was moving, Often I would find my abilities getting canceled, and I couldn't do anything against the target. The fact that the target must remain inside the skill arc for the entire action bar makes it nearly impossible to get a skill off against a target that is moving away from you or perpendicular to you. If the check were instead only performed at the start and the end of the ability, that would allow for some leeway to chase a moving target and get them back into the arc for your attack to connect. As it stands, every member of the party must learn to not move during combat, lest the tank become unable to control an enemy that either joins the battle or that the tank loses threat on.

Time commitment:​

I'm a stay-at-home dad, so I have the luxury of being able to commit large blocks of time to a game if I prepare for it. But at the same time, I know that there's a very good reason why games with shorter play cycles (like FPS, MOBA, RTS, WoW, etc) are more successful. You can log in, play for an hour or two, and log out having made meaningful progress. That bite-sized content is what allows people with more busy lives to still enjoy your game. Currently, getting on to the game for less than 2 hours at a time is very close to a waste of time. By the time you form a group (assuming you have a large guild or the LFG system is well-utilized), your group gathers and moves to the content that they will be embarking on, be it a dungeon or a farming camp, and begins, at least 20 minutes will have passed, then when you're done, you have another 10-20 minutes trying to return to a safe place before logging out. When you're asking for 5 other people's time, it needs to have a payoff.
Dungeons are an even bigger time commitment, since you may find yourself deep in the dungeon, with up to an hour of combat just to fight your way out. Sunday, I played nearly 12 hours, and nearly half of that was in the NH Central Veins. With no Emberdrifts or other means of exiting the dungeon or getting replaced, entering that dungeon past the first few mob spawns is a 3+ hour commitment. That's a big ask. If something comes up, and you have to log out, or if you get disconnected for any extended length of time you're basically guaranteed to have a bag that will have to be abandoned, since you'll log back in to a dungeon without a party to help you escape. Additionally, the rest of your party then has to fight their way back to the entrance of the dungeon in order to either escape themselves or meet up with your replacement.
I'm hoping that Emberdrifts will be added to that portion of the dungeon, as well as other means of replacing a character who is unable to continue with the party.

Navigation:​

The biggest complaint as far as gameplay that I heard from my guildmates as well as that I encountered was getting lost. Especially in dense woods, the trees all look so similar to each other that it is easy to lose your bearings. I know having no minimap or location marker on the map is a deliberate choice, and I understand it. But without at very least a compass, getting lost can easily lead to wandering away from an ember ring and not being able to find your way back to it, leading to frustration and loss of players. I was told that some sort of UI compass is in the works, and I hope that is true, because as it stands, navigation is yet another aspect of the game that just adds to the time commitment problem.
I'd also like to see more high points in the terrain where you can climb up and get your bearings. If there were 3/4 places in each zone that could be seen and where you could see a large portion of the zone to orient yourself, that would be incredibly helpful. Especially if those high points get marked on your map, and highlighted when you're at one, similar to how ember rings are currently. For example, the windmill at the top of the hill in NW Newhaven provides a great view of the entire north end of the zone, but it's not marked on the map, and due to the heavy tree canopy, it's almost impossible to see from a distance. Meanwhile, several of the encampments with ember rings have large lookout towers that are marked on the map and can be seen well from a distance, but you are unable to climb to get a view of the surrounding area.

Cost/payment model:​

I'll say this as bluntly as possible to make sure that I'm not misunderstood. What I played this weekend is not worth a monthly subscription. Especially after a $50 initial purchase. I don't know when you're planning on moving to a subscription model, but I hope it's not soon, because the game has a lot of rough edges that need to be filed off before it would be enough of a value to where I would consider a monthly subscription. A buy-once payment model with a VIP subscription that gives cosmetic options seems like the direction that most indie MMOs are going to, or a season pass model, where the newest content is purchased a few times per year, and previously new content rotates into the base game cost. Either of those I think would be more successful than a subscription.
If you're hell-bent on a subscription model, I wouldn't expect to spend more than $100 per year for the game in the state that I can garner your planned release goals are, with the purchase of the game including the first 6 months of play.

Final thoughts:​

Like I said, I haven't had as much fun in an MMO in years as I did over this past weekend. I hope to see continued improvement on the game as beta continues, and I will definitely be continuing to take part in the testing process and provide feedback as development continues and I explore more of the game.

 

[Blyte Plays]

I gotta say, it was awesome seeing your guild coming to play this weekend. I really hope yall stick around, and follow the development!

This team has put in a ton of nerd hours in its development, and they are constantly adding and refining systems, zones, art, animation.

I am sure you will be pleased in the weeks/months to come with their labors to better the game!

 

[AdricLives]

First thanks for such a lengthy and in depth feedback post, I fully appreciate the time taken.

Showing the average DPS or at least the average damage on the tooltip could help with readability.

We had this for a bit, but many overlooked that abilities have weapon damage included and are sometimes put through a multiplier so calculated DPS based on autoattacks was entirely misleading. Maybe average damage (and not focusing on DPS) would be an OK middle ground.

IMO the biggest reason to have solo-friendly content even in a group-focused game is to give people something to do while they're forming a group. If someone logs in, and literally can't do anything for 10-20 minutes while they form a group, then they're going to log off before the next person who wants to play gets on, creating a vicious cycle of people logging off before the next potential groupmate logs in. Without a HUGE playerbase, and incredibly easy party finding, you're not going to break out of that unless you are able to keep that first player online long enough to form a group. There needs to be something meaningful that can be done solo so that you don't either have to schedule in advance your playtime or risk logging on, looking around, not finding anyone, and then logging off (leaving the next person to do the same).

Yea definitely. The content burden is quite large on us, as we've decided to support full group, small group and solo content and I fully recognize as far as interesting solo content there isn't much outside of maybe harvesting/gathering and some quests now that they've started being added. I completely agree, just need to balance that because we've all learned from modern MMOs that if solo is a reasonably easy path, then that becomes THE path.

The pace of combat is much slower than most modern MMOs, and I see this as a good thing, from both an accessability and a gameplay standpoint. Continuously mashing buttons for hours on end is one of the reasons that I can't play many games, My hands are not what they were in my youth, and I much prefer the tactical feel to combat in EA compared to the much faster paced skill rotations of WoW or GW2. Through the entire weekend, I didn't find myself in pain the way I might playing a long stretch of a game that requires continuous keyboard presses. This slower combat also allows for more time to think about what skills I am going to use, and to react in a more deliberate way.

While not quite as old as yourself I definitely have felt the desire for something slower paced, glad I'm not alone.

The fact that the target must remain inside the skill arc for the entire action bar makes it nearly impossible to get a skill off against a target that is moving away from you or perpendicular to you. If the check were instead only performed at the start and the end of the ability, that would allow for some leeway to chase a moving target and get them back into the arc for your attack to connect. As it stands, every member of the party must learn to not move during combat, lest the tank become unable to control an enemy that either joins the battle or that the tank loses threat on.

We do have some wiggle-room we added in "coyote-time" basically the arc grows as the longer you get into an execution time loosening the requirements and improving your odds of landing your ability. The pain point here is if its only checked at the start and end, you could be facing in the wrong direction and still executing the ability essentially wasting your time for an ability which has no chance of landing. Considering ability execution slows down your movement we've always considered it better to cancel your ability, but its feedback that comes up now and then so perhaps not something that is good enough yet.

Time commitment:​

This ones challenging because of course all those games exist. We want to give a tabletop RPG style experience, which is like a 2-4 hour adventure with your friends. And yea, part of that is time commitment. I think there's a bunch of other concerns tied into this topic, like easier dungeon egress, summon systems, bank and merchant placement, inventory recovery systems. So we know its just a line of player conveniences that wreck havoc on world immersion, risk vs reward and create haphazard playstyles. We're still working on solutions here, but we are keenly aware of what these systems will destroy.

Navigation:​

No compass UI element, but the heavens can help orient you. Big blue is consistent in its placement, being tidally locked to a planet has its advantages.

 

[Sprout]

I do like your writing Cyberwulf! Awesome feedback! Since i am not as great i will be giving my feedback here by commenting on some points:

There needs to be something meaningful that can be done solo so that you don't either have to schedule in advance your playtime or risk logging on, looking around, not finding anyone, and then logging off (leaving the next person to do the same).

I've been playing a healer in ALL mmo's i've played and i have to say this game was the 1st i was able to solo in. That being said, i have had times i had to wait to group up during the weekend, BUT i was allways busy picking flowers, killing deer for reagents and tea, so imho the devs don't need to change anything, the players can addapt easily and the problem is a problem no longer.

The biggest issue with the combat system that I encountered was the difficulty presented with the weapon arc system combined with the fact that no skills are instant.

I had the same issue, but with my heals. Not only the arc, but the range got me into trouble and ppl died because of it. I dont think you need to change it, ppl can learn how to do it and it will be fine, BUT players will need to learn to stand still more, run to the healer if they need heals,... Yesterday elloa was kiting a mob and to heal her i had to run to a spot she would be and hit the button at the right moment, i noticed she saw me do it and slowed down so i had time to finish the timer and it worked! I was able to heal while she was kiting multiple times. Me personally get frustrated sometimes with the way it is implimented atm, BUT i've learned to lve with it. I do have a small concern that i know i'm a very patient and forgiving person and alot of players that want to heal might not be as happy about it. So IF you think it needs changing, i'd go for a compromise. Keep the arc, but boost the range e.g.

Continuously mashing buttons for hours on end is one of the reasons that I can't play many games, My hands are not what they were in my youth, and I much prefer the tactical feel to combat in EA compared to the much faster paced skill rotations of WoW or GW2. Through the entire weekend,

Same here, i've been no lifing this game this weekend, playing for 12+ hours a day and even though my wrists hurt at the end, with other mmo's i'd be able to play 4hours or so. The slow pace is something i wanted for ages

Currently, getting on to the game for less than 2 hours at a time is very close to a waste of time.

I dont agree, anything you do will progress your character and any time spent with a game you like and hanging out with friends/guildies is never wasted.

Dungeons are an even bigger time commitment, since you may find yourself deep in the dungeon, with up to an hour of combat just to fight your way out. Sunday, I played nearly 12 hours, and nearly half of that was in the NH Central Veins. With no Emberdrifts or other means of exiting the dungeon or getting replaced, entering that dungeon past the first few mob spawns is a 3+ hour commitment.

I totally agree. Dungeons are not something you can do in a few hours. Even if you get in fast, you cant get out fast and that takes a while, even more when someone dies. One of the biggest concerns we had was that when someone leaves in the middle of a dungeon the rest of the grp might not be able to get out. While this makes for great adventures (and i love that), i can see the problems aswell. We have been talking about it and someone meantioned a way to maybe teleport someone in, but on a timer of 3hours or so, so you cant abuse it eg. The way it is now i see ppl playing organised dungeonsruns in the weekend (more free time) and outside content during the week (easy to get in and out of).

The biggest complaint as far as gameplay that I heard from my guildmates as well as that I encountered was getting lost. Especially in dense woods, the trees all look so similar to each other that it is easy to lose your bearings. I know having no minimap or location marker on the map is a deliberate choice, and I understand it. But without at very least a compass, getting lost can easily lead to wandering away from an ember ring and not being able to find your way back to it, leading to frustration and loss of players.

I heard that aswell, BUT with this i do not agree at all. I understand that ppl will get lost, just like IRL. And that might bring frustration. Solution: grp up and run to someone or let them guide you, you have to grp up anyway. If not, great! more exploring, wasnt that the point of the game? Exploring, discovering, wonder?

I'd also like to see more high points in the terrain where you can climb up and get your bearings.

I like that idea! I dont think you should put them on the map, unless you discovered them before, just like it is now with other locations. I allso would like to climb towers to take a look around.

I'll say this as bluntly as possible to make sure that I'm not misunderstood. What I played this weekend is not worth a monthly subscription. Especially after a $50 initial purchase.

I had the same thought. I was thinking the following: either 50 for purchasing untill it is finished, maybe have some backer thing if ppl want to help you out. After its finished you can start asking monthly sub. OR ask a lower purchase price and a sub of maybe 10 a month? lower purchase cost will add more ppl to the game and more might stick around. I for one was not willing to pay 50 for a game that i hadnt played and isnt ready yet (since i'm a student and need to watch what i buy), not just yours, i have that with all games and i have alot of friends who ALLWAYS wait untill a game becomes cheaper on steam. Anyway, i'm buying it, when it's released

Like I said, I haven't had as much fun in an MMO in years as I did over this past weekend. I hope to see continued improvement on the game as beta continues, and I will definitely be continuing to take part in the testing process and provide feedback as development continues and I explore more of the game.

I feel the same 100%!!!!!

Overall i'm very glad to see things i have been hoping for in mmos to return and see it in this game. I had an amazing time playing with everyone, never have i had such challenges and managed to overcome them! I hear players complain they are tired of the same old type of mmos, but at the same time they complain about things being different then other mmos... I hope you will be able to stay true to yourself and finish this lovely game

 

[CypherWulf]

Thanks for the response Adric! I'm glad to be part of a beta that is willing to listen to and respond to concerns of the players. I really hope that it didn't come off as a huge list of complaints, because like I said, I've been having a blast, and I'm definitely going to keep following the development and playing.

We had this for a bit, but many overlooked that abilities have weapon damage included and are sometimes put through a multiplier so calculated DPS based on autoattacks was entirely misleading. Maybe average damage (and not focusing on DPS) would be an OK middle ground.

It wouldn't even be straying far from TTRPG roots, often you'll see the average damage listed right after a damage roll in stat blocks to make things easier for the DM at the table. For example:

Yea definitely. The content burden is quite large on us, as we've decided to support full group, small group and solo content and I fully recognize as far as interesting solo content there isn't much outside of maybe harvesting/gathering and some quests now that they've started being added. I completely agree, just need to balance that because we've all learned from modern MMOs that if solo is a reasonably easy path, then that becomes THE path.

I totally agree. Like I said, I don't think that soloing all the way to max should be possible. Group content is where MMOs shine. But solo content has to exist to support that. Perhaps if the solo progression were more lateral, rather than vertical, that would get the best of both worlds. For example, if solo content were to reward primarly cosmetic benefits rather than experience and equipment. For example, if solo mobs were less likely to drop on-level crafting/skill reagents and more likely to drop reagents of a tier lower and equipment that is cosmetic only or maybe even dyes to allow recoloring of equipment that is already in-game in multiple colors (such as shirts, gloves, boots, and pants).
One thing I know about MMO players is that they will absolutely spend time pimping out their toon, and if there were a chance of getting a rare dye (or reagents to make it (maybe provisioner creates and outfitter applies the dye? lots of room for commerce!) I'd be farming for it any time I don't have a group available.

We do have some wiggle-room we added in "coyote-time" basically the arc grows as the longer you get into an execution time loosening the requirements and improving your odds of landing your ability. The pain point here is if its only checked at the start and end, you could be facing in the wrong direction and still executing the ability essentially wasting your time for an ability which has no chance of landing. Considering ability execution slows down your movement we've always considered it better to cancel your ability, but its feedback that comes up now and then so perhaps not something that is good enough yet.

I think perhaps the biggest issue is not knowing if your ability is going to succeed. I know it's not something everyone wants, but if the arc overlay of the ability that shows up when you hold alt and hover over the skill were to show during the skill execution so I could move or communicate to my party how they need to move, that would go a long way towards abating my frustration. Clearly this would be something that people would want the ability to toggle or control. Perhaps just having the currently executing skill's arc appear if you hold alt while it's in progress as the default?

This ones challenging because of course all those games exist. We want to give a tabletop RPG style experience, which is like a 2-4 hour adventure with your friends. And yea, part of that is time commitment. I think there's a bunch of other concerns tied into this topic, like easier dungeon egress, summon systems, bank and merchant placement, inventory recovery systems. So we know its just a line of player conveniences that wreck havoc on world immersion, risk vs reward and create haphazard playstyles. We're still working on solutions here, but we are keenly aware of what these systems will destroy.

I understand the apprehension about it, and I agree to an extent. But there comes a point where concessions have to be made for factors outside of the game. If I sit down to play fully intending to stick with my party for 2-4 hours, and my internet goes out, or my power goes out, or one of my sons gets hurt, or any number of other potential reasons that I'm not able to continue, it really sucks that not only do I get punished for it with a bag of lost loot, but the 5 people I'm with are also punished because they have to get back out of the dungeon without me, and run the same risk of losing their loot. Like I said in the original post, I don't know how frequent the Emberdrifts are in higher level dungeons, so it could be a non-issue, but having no gracious way to exit a dungeon in an urgent manner makes the game basically inaccessible for anyone with significant real-world responsibilities.
Compounded onto that problem is the lack of shorter-term options, for when you want to play, but can't necessarily commit to a whole evening (or more) of play. Being able to get on, and get something meaningful done in an 1/2-1 hour is a worthwhile thing that will help players feel like the game isn't just something they can do on the weekends. Even if all they can do is farm some reagents, or gather materials, that's progress. I think that as I level up, having the option to return to lower level zones to do that effectively and safely will allieviate most of this issue for me, but especially pre-level 10, it's just not there.
I don't mind that the majority of the content is focused around longer play sessions, that's awesome, and a part of MMOs that has been lost, the adversity and difficulty and the sense of danger that were a part of entering what should, by all logic, be an incredibly dangerous place. Overcoming that adversity is what gives the real sense of pride and accomplishment (©, Electronic Arts) and part of overcoming adversity is tenacity, What I do think is a problem are the dual problems of interrupted play sessions being punishing to the entire group, and that it feels like any sort of progress is going to require a whole evening (or more) of play.
My armchair, half-way through a game-design degree suggestion is to have an ability that can only be used out of combat that teleports the entire party to the dungeon entrance on a 2-3 hour cooldown, and the rough expectation that a competent group could fight their way to the nearest Emberdrift from anywhere in the dungeon in about 1/2 hour (assuming they know where they are going). That way, losing a party member half-way through the dungeon isn't a death sentence for 6 players. That, combined with a few more options for shorter-length play sessions (again, like solo play, I don't think these options should be the best choice, or even a good option for progressing your character, just an option) would basically eliminate the time commitment concern for me.

No compass UI element, but the heavens can help orient you. Big blue is consistent in its placement, being tidally locked to a planet has its advantages.

Okay, in that case, there needs to be a considerable effort made to ensure that it is visible. Cloud cover, thick canopy, and high cliffs are the hallmarks of both Newhaven and Northhaven, so it's pretty frequent that you can find yourself completely unable to discern north. Additionally, there needs to be a strong information push to players from several NPCs to make sure that new players know this, for example the first several quest dialogues should include something along the lines of "Go east, keep Big Blue on your left, to find [objective]".
Also, the landmarks I talked about in OP or similar efforts to aid in orienteering or something similar to help players have some idea of where in the zone they are, even if it's not exact, would aid players in recovering from losing their way instead of (what I ended up doing a couple of times) running aimlessly until I find a road or a zone barrier.

 

[CypherWulf]

We do have some wiggle-room we added in "coyote-time" basically the arc grows as the longer you get into an execution time loosening the requirements and improving your odds of landing your ability. The pain point here is if its only checked at the start and end, you could be facing in the wrong direction and still executing the ability essentially wasting your time for an ability which has no chance of landing. Considering ability execution slows down your movement we've always considered it better to cancel your ability, but its feedback that comes up now and then so perhaps not something that is good enough yet.

Circling back to this, What if when a target moves out of the arc, the arc appears in red, and the execution pauses and you have some amount of time to adjust your position (like .75-1 second) before the skill is fully canceled? Like a lot of the things in this game, it's not an issue of design or bad mechanics, the problem is the fact that the information the player needs isn't well communicated.

Also, it'd be nice if there was a specific "cancel ability" keybind. Putting away your weapon works for most, but If I'm mid gathering, and a party member gets attacked, I'm stuck in that animation and can't go over and tank for them until I complete it.

 

[Dalton]

I believe ESC does cancel your ability.

 

[RazorBrains]

This ones challenging because of course all those games exist. We want to give a tabletop RPG style experience, which is like a 2-4 hour adventure with your friends. And yea, part of that is time commitment. I think there's a bunch of other concerns tied into this topic, like easier dungeon egress, summon systems, bank and merchant placement, inventory recovery systems. So we know its just a line of player conveniences that wreck havoc on world immersion, risk vs reward and create haphazard playstyles. We're still working on solutions here, but we are keenly aware of what these systems will destroy.

LOL destroy?

Porting has been in games since the beginning. Never heard anyone say old school MMO's like UO was not immersive back in the day. Tying this to destroying immersion is an absolute joke.
You think time wasting mechanics are immersive? I have played so many immersive games with porting and plenty of inventory space.

You think it would be immersive before you were able to play a game to watch a 30min cinematic, over and over again. How does wasting time equal immersion? General public knows what you doing. Its plain for everyone to see, that you use bank placement, lack of inventory, lack of travel, after battle recovery time as TIME wasters. You think these time wasters actually can be used as content. You are not fooling the general public on this, only yourselves.

If you think these are so immersive, why not increase the time then hmmmmm? LOL we all know what you are doing. You are trying to put in the most time wasting you possibly can to replace content. You are trying to figure out what is just the right amount that the community wont openly rebel. You have misjudged that amount, and have made this game appeal to the smallest niche of people that are willing to deal with the equivalent of banging there head against a wall just to have the slightest amount of fun.

Now you out here spouting off that you did this for immersion purposes. LOL Please spare me!

 

[RazorBrains]

We do have some wiggle-room we added in "coyote-time" basically the arc grows as the longer you get into an execution time loosening the requirements and improving your odds of landing your ability. The pain point here is if its only checked at the start and end, you could be facing in the wrong direction and still executing the ability essentially wasting your time for an ability which has no chance of landing. Considering ability execution slows down your movement we've always considered it better to cancel your ability, but its feedback that comes up now and then so perhaps not something that is good enough yet.

Nobody wants the spell or ability to go off and lose stamina, and they also are not saying they want the ability to continue through until the end regardless and then fail. So if that's what you think the feedback from people is saying, you are completely misunderstanding.

We get you are trying to put the player into some false choice of having to choose the current horrible system or some other horrible system. However you do realize people have played other games before right? Every single game out there handles this problem without it being a problem. Maybe play a game and figure it out how they do it? Pretty sure you don't need to listen to a bunch of non-programmers on how to solve this. The beta players are telling you its a problem, either you agree its a problem or not.

People want you to loosen up the parameters on the backend AND still hit the mob. The same goes with healing, we want a heal where it doesn't cancel at the end yet still heals the target. Its pretty simple, practically every game handles this problem but yours. I don't know, Have a midway check, instead of end check. Keep width and range tight on front end, but widen the width/range on the back ended checks.

So IF you think it needs changing, i'd go for a compromise. Keep the arc, but boost the range e.g.

Only increasing the heal range does not solve the problem, people will just get further back and the problem will still be the same, only at longer range.

The devs can fix this is my guess, but they think the problem is so trivial they don't want to spend any time on it. The other option is the devs lack the technical skills to do what ever other MMO is capable of doing. I hope the 2nd case is not true.

 

[Dalton]

I think just maybe this game isn’t for you. If you strongly dislike every aspect of the game, it’s late in development to completely change every part. And when devs try to give explain their thinking on a topic or why they approached it that way you just laugh and get more upset, spend your time playing games you enjoy. Being toxic and saying the devs are trying lying and creating systems to keep waste players time isn’t constructive for them or the community.

 

[RazorBrains]

I think just maybe this game isn’t for you. If you strongly dislike every aspect of the game, it’s late in development to completely change every part. And when devs try to give explain their thinking on a topic or why they approached it that way you just laugh and get more upset, spend your time playing games you enjoy. Being toxic and saying the devs are trying lying and creating systems to keep waste players time isn’t constructive for them or the community.

Well do you believe it? If wasting peoples time is fun, then why not do more of that? Seems like common sense, people are complaining game is not fun, so add more fun. You think the players want more time wasters? Because if Fun=wasting time, the solution should be waste more time. So why don't they up the factor by around 10x, that would be 10x the fun YES? Test that out and see if that is a true statement. However if time wasters = less fun, maybe TEST removing those things and see how people respond. Is this not logical?

You think licking their boots is constructive? Releasing this game in a failed state is constructive?

You think people have never played a video game before and don't know this combat attack/heal canceling feels shabby compared to every other game in their life? The only reason these devs are even saying this stuff is they think someone actually believes it. I cant even tell you the amount of times I heard this dev team say they CANT or WONT do something then a month later or longer put the exact thing they said was detrimental to the spirit of the game into the game. I also cant count the number of times I heard people say how XXX was not a problem and should not to be in the game, then AS SOON as the devs change it, the fanboys are all there praising the change and how needed it was. Inventory and Darkness are prime examples, but there are so many more.

So someone has to tell the truth, there are so many bootlickers that are completely full of BS. Its like someone at a meeting with food in their teeth, nobody wants to be the one to tell them. If everyone told the truth about what is actually going on, you might actually see some real progress. You think?

You know this dev team always talks about iteration. The most logical way to find the perfect balanced number between 1 - 100 in as few tries as possible would be to start at the number 50, then go 25 or 75 depending on that outcome. You can guess the exact number within 7 tries every time. However if you start at 1, 2, 3 as your guesses incrementally, it could take 14x longer up to 100 tries to get the correct answer. Its this thinking is why this team is having so many problems. I am trying to get them there in less than 7 tries, and they are always starting at 1 and usually falling short every time.

Maybe you are right, maybe its too late to turn around. Maybe its time for me to leave. I wouldn't be the first, the last test had half as many people as the time before, despite your guild representing half the players in the test. That's about 3/4 reduction of players. So many that had real criticism have given up on this game. Maybe its time for me too.

There is another option, maybe the fanbois should tell the truth for once? How hard would that be?
If I was these devs anyone that says they like this game as it is now, I would put those people on /ignore. This game is losing ground with players and anyone that says they like this, obviously is either A) completely lying or B) not representative of any sizable base of players. I would be searching out all the players that like MMO's in the past that have left this game, and start figuring out WHY? Instead they are out there trying not to hurt their fanbois feelings. While they drive the game right off the cliff.

 

[CypherWulf]

I think what it boils down to is that there's a big difference between the way I presented my feedback and the way you are. I in no uncertain terms pointed out things that NEED to be fixed in order for this game to be successful, but In a way that allows for respect and discussion. If you're just going to shit on the game, then expect that the team to jump through their ass to accede to your demands, even if they conflict with their goals for the game, you're going to find yourself repeatedly disappointed.

 

[Undone]

Razor you've been berating us on these forums for just over three years now. Everything we do or do not do is "wrong" or "the worst ever LOL" in your eyes from what I gather. In the comments of most mmorpg.com articles about us you rant about how we don't listen to anyone and adore wasting people's time while neglecting to mention all of the changes we have implemented due to player feedback. You continually hijack threads on our forums to stand on your soap box and ultimately derail the conversation.

You frequently bring up valid points that are worth a discussion. However, the words you use to present your thoughts are typically insulting, rude, and belittling. To you this may not be a big deal as you are trying to get your point across. But I would argue that it is very disruptive to the community as a whole. You may have noticed that forum feedback has diminished as of late - most of which is attributed to folks like yourself hijacking threads and shitting on ideas that you disagree with. I genuinely believe that you are a lovely human being in real life with good intentions; but here, on these forums, you come off as an arrogant bully.

It's obvious to me that the game we are building is not a game you would enjoy, yet you continue to come here and interject. Which brings me to the ultimate question: why are you really here? I've been asking myself this a lot as of late and I don't really have a satisfactory answer.

 

[RazorBrains]

I think what it boils down to is that there's a big difference between the way I presented my feedback and the way you are. I in no uncertain terms pointed out things that NEED to be fixed in order for this game to be successful, but In a way that allows for respect and discussion. If you're just going to shit on the game, then expect that the team to jump through their ass to accede to your demands, even if they conflict with their goals for the game, you're going to find yourself repeatedly disappointed.

Valid, but talk to me in 6 months? When the most obvious problems you are bringing up are still not solved, and the devs are giving you complete BS like its not possible to change or the changes are detrimental to the game? We will see how forgiving you are at that point. I am pretty sure your attitude will change.

All these things you are saying have already been said many times before. Some nice, and some not so nice. Nothing new at all. Been there done that over and over.

I am not giving any demands. I can only show the door, its up to them to walk through it

 

[CypherWulf]

Valid, but talk to me in 6 months? When the most obvious problems you are bringing up are still not solved, and the devs are giving you complete BS like its not possible to change or the changes are detrimental to the game? We will see how forgiving you are at that point. I am pretty sure your attitude will change.

Then I'll leave if that's the case. Nobody is making me stay, and nobody is making you stay. It's not my job to make the game, or to try to bludgeon the devs into making it my way instead of theirs. I was given a key in exchange for my feedback, and I'll present it, respectfully and as helpfully as I can. I hope that EA can become the game I've been looking for for the last decade and a half or so, but it's not the first that I have hoped might, and even if it doesn't, I've had enough fun over the past few days to well justify my time. So getting back to Undone's question, if you aren't having fun, and it's not likely to become the game that you're hoping for, why are you still here?

 

[RazorBrains]

Razor you've been berating us on these forums for just over three years now. Everything we do or do not do is "wrong" or "the worst ever LOL" in your eyes from what I gather. In the comments of most mmorpg.com articles about us you rant about how we don't listen to anyone and adore wasting people's time while neglecting to mention all of the changes we have implemented due to player feedback. You continually hijack threads on our forums to stand on your soap box and ultimately derail the conversation.

First, not every comment I make is negative. I list positives where I see them. I am just telling the truth. From your position anyone giving criticism is hating on your game, which is probably why you are first to defend the game anytime someone posts. I never disagreed you are making changes based on feedback. Many of the major positive changes you made were based on my feedback. How many people are complaining about wanting to go back to complete darkness back, or want to give up all those inventory slots they currently have, or want to be chased by 3up mobs at all the ore nodes like it used to be, or don't want additional fast travel options, on and on these things.

Yet all these things required a bunch of people including myself to argue with you over and over and over. Unfortunately many of those voices have left mainly because people got sick and tired of arguing about it with you. But why is it so hard to get out front of these problems and understand what people like me are saying? You are the first person to defend your game, which is why there is a disagreement.

People usually expect when an obvious problem is proven, the dev would just say agree its a problem and stick it on the list. Its really hard to argue with this approach. I remember when I suggested changing skills from auto-leveling to giving the player a CHOICE what skills to level. You said it was something similar to what you wanted to do and would put it in for future development. Not much arguing with that even though its still not in.

Different story when a dev is coming here saying things like recall or summons = destroying immersion. LOL like that pretty much means no game in this genre is immersive. So yeah I am going to call that complete BS out. Especially when I know guaranteed that you are going to put this into your game eventually, and all those fanbois who are telling you in private they agree with you this feature is bad, are going to 180 change directions the moment you add it and then start telling you how amazing your change is.

You may have noticed that forum feedback has diminished as of late - most of which is attributed to folks like yourself hijacking threads and shitting on ideas that you disagree with.

LOL you kidding me with this? Back before when I was commenting regularly the forums were growing, I helped take these forums from dead to actually people posting here. Any topic I was in were probably the most popular topics on the entire forum. Ideas I was bringing up or commenting on were popular. After I left I took a few months away from this game, the forums completely died. I would check in but purposely not comment and see days go by without a single post. On other sites if I post ember topics stay on the front page for weeks, when I don't post they die with 1 - 3 people. I will bet even now the posts I am in are the most popular watched threads. Its not because I'm some streamer or popular, its because I bring up interesting topics and others are too nice to say it.

Most people are going to agree with my points, just not the tone I'm saying them. So what are we talking about here? Feelings?

Don't blame me for a dead beta either. Back in previous beta resets, I was building groups left and right, people were loving the groups I was building, I was always pulling newbs in and showing them the ropes. My crowd was extremely efficient and showed people what this game could be if done right from a group perspective. Many of the highest level players you have are people I grouped with regularly in previous betas. When me and a couple other avid groups left people could barely find a group. Everyone started going solo.

It's obvious to me that the game we are building is not a game you would enjoy, yet you continue to come here and interject. Which brings me to the ultimate question: why are you really here? I've been asking myself this a lot as of late and I don't really have a satisfactory answer.

Hope, is the answer. Much like all the players level 5-15 that see this game has potential. People like myself believe there is still a shot at being a pretty decent game. It just needs a few systems, and removal of barriers that are hamstringing the game. Success and failure are not that far apart. But the window is closing, I am seeing that, its a last ditch effort to open your eyes, I see I failed. For this game release will be the final straw, if it releases this way then mission failure. I am an avid MMO player, and the failure of this game will have ripples on PVE MMO's in the future. Funding will be slim as people will point at this game and a couple others like it as players don't want old school difficulty PVE MMO's. Which is not true at all, they just want more PVM fun, and less time wasting.

Don't ask LazyPeon to stream your game, if you think what I am saying is bad, he will completely destroy this game in a review. Most of his suggestions will be spot on mind you, but your feelings apparently will be hurt by the direct tone.

I am sorry you don't like my direct approach, I know you would rather have people just telling you how great everything is then go into release completely shocked. Its going to be real hard to say nobody ever told you about these problems when I am sitting here telling you these problems. So blame shifting will be real difficult then. Anything I am saying is going to be 100x more at release, have no doubt.

I have a bunch of ideas on how you can fix this thing and salvage a decent playerbase. But apparently your feeling are more important than success.

But fine, you want space, I will give it to you. Hope you fix this game. Either way I will still review your game honestly, both positives and negatives. See you on the flip side.

 

[Undone]

From your position anyone giving criticism is hating on your game, which is probably why you are first to defend the game anytime someone posts.

I do not agree with this at all. I don't come to the forums to "defend" the game. I am simply sharing our perspective on why we implemented something a specific way. That's typically how conversation works - we each share our thought process on how we arrived to an opinion and then discuss. You should know better than most that I'm open to discuss anything in a productive manner - but most discussions with you end up devolving into some form of berating because we simply disagree on a viable solution.

Yet all these things required a bunch of people including myself to argue with you over and over and over. Unfortunately many of those voices have left mainly because people got sick and tired of arguing about it with you. But why is it so hard to get out front of these problems and understand what people like me are saying? You are the first person to defend your game, which is why there is a disagreement.

I think there are two sides to this coin. There are likely some who left because they disagreed with my viewpoints or didn't feel like pressing the issue. But there is also many who were tired of leaving feedback and having their threads hijacked. I know this because a number of players still provide me feedback on a regular basis through different means and have specifically cited that no longer participate on the forums for reasons such as this.

People usually expect when an obvious problem is proven, the dev would just say agree its a problem and stick it on the list. Its really hard to argue with this approach. I remember when I suggested changing skills from auto-leveling to giving the player a CHOICE what skills to level. You said it was something similar to what you wanted to do and would put it in for future development. Not much arguing with that even though its still not in.

I do not think identifying the problem areas is the source of our disputes. The disagreement seems to stem from the problem's severity and proposed solutions. This game is literally coded by two people and we have a mountain of work to do. You think I don't recognize all of our flaws? I have to prioritize our engineering time between work left to be done and adjustments to current systems. We can't fix it all by launch; it's just not going to happen with the small team we have.

LOL you kidding me with this? Back before when I was commenting regularly the forums were growing, I helped take these forums from dead to actually people posting here. Any topic I was in were probably the most popular topics on the entire forum. Ideas I was bringing up or commenting on were popular. After I left I took a few months away from this game, the forums completely died. I would check in but purposely not comment and see days go by without a single post. On other sites if I post ember topics stay on the front page for weeks, when I don't post they die with 1 - 3 people. I will bet even now the posts I am in are the most popular watched threads. Its not because I'm some streamer or popular, its because I bring up interesting topics and others are too nice to say it.

You are sounding rather full of yourself here. But you are right, many of the topics and discussions you brought up were very fruitful. But after a while the majority of them devolved into a back and forth argument about how one person is wrong and if you disagree you are an idiot. I am completely paraphrasing and over generalizing but you get the point.

Most people are going to agree with my points, just not the tone I'm saying them. So what are we talking about here? Feelings?

A friend shared a quote from a psychologist named Adam Grant the other day which made me immediately think of you:

"I'm just being honest" is a poor excuse for being rude.
Candor is being forthcoming in what you say. Respect is being considerate in how you say it.
Being direct with the content of your feedback doesn't prevent you from being thoughtful about the best way to deliver it.

This really has nothing to do with feelings. Reading and responding to your posts is just simply exhausting after a while. Not because of what you say, but because of how you say it. We are more than happy to receive and respond to constructive negative feedback. And I will be the first to admit that your feedback is typically constructive once you dig it out of the mountain of sarcasm and insults. But the mere process of digging it out is the exhausting part and most don't even bother any more. I've mentioned to you before that there is a big difference in how feedback is received based on the delivery - and your response was basically "I see no difference". This told me that you've either never been in my position, have a complete lack of empathy for other humans, or you just don't give a shit. But at the end of the day it doesn't really matter. You do you. Just don't expect us to continue having discussions if that is the attitude you are going to take.

Hope, is the answer. Much like all the players level 5-15 that see this game has potential. People like myself believe there is still a shot at being a pretty decent game. It just needs a few systems, and removal of barriers that are hamstringing the game. Success and failure are not that far apart. But the window is closing, I am seeing that, its a last ditch effort to open your eyes, I see I failed. For this game release will be the final straw, if it releases this way then mission failure. I am an avid MMO player, and the failure of this game will have ripples on PVE MMO's in the future. Funding will be slim as people will point at this game and a couple others like it as players don't want old school difficulty PVE MMO's. Which is not true at all, they just want more PVM fun, and less time wasting.

I appreciate and respect the answer. As I mentioned above I recognize we have a lot of flaws. Some we can fix, some we simply can't with the time remaining. But our hope is to continue working on this product and continue improving it for as long as possible. The fact that this game exists at all is nothing short of a miracle and I'm extremely proud of what we've done in the past two+ years. I wouldn't say you failed to "open my eyes" - we just have to do the best with what we've got with the time we have left.

I am sorry you don't like my direct approach, I know you would rather have people just telling you how great everything is then go into release completely shocked. Its going to be real hard to say nobody ever told you about these problems when I am sitting here telling you these problems. So blame shifting will be real difficult then. Anything I am saying is going to be 100x more at release, have no doubt.

The last thing we want is "people just telling you how great everything is". We ask for feedback every week, good or bad. As alluded to by others above - there's a subtle but huge difference in how you present that feedback and therefore how the discussions play out afterwards. And no one is looking to shift the blame. If we fall flat on our face that's on us.

I have a bunch of ideas on how you can fix this thing and salvage a decent playerbase. But apparently your feeling are more important than success.

Again, this has nothing to do with feelings and is all about what to do with the time we have remaining before launch. I'd love to fix all of our problems, trust me.

 

[RazorBrains]

I think there are two sides to this coin. There are likely some who left because they disagreed with my viewpoints or didn't feel like pressing the issue. But there is also many who were tired of leaving feedback and having their threads hijacked. I know this because a number of players still provide me feedback on a regular basis through different means and have specifically cited that no longer participate on the forums for reasons such as this.

So lets think here, you have people feeding you info without any peer review at all. Additionally I never see you throw these ideas back out to the community to see what their opinions are. Got to wonder how good these ideas are, that people are so afraid to have any sort of debate on them at all.

You know someone on your staff could post these unreviewed ideas for consideration before implementation right? Throw them out to your team and your beta testers? See what the community thinks before you spend a bunch of time thinking about and coding a bad idea? Especially with a small team and all, run it a few weeks and see what pops out. Why are people so scared to have there opinions tested and criticized? If you had a forum with proper debate, you might actually see a rise in interest for this game. Yeah I know its a foreign concept that actually letting players discuss ideas can actually attract people.

When someone puts ideas on a forum, it will need to be at least somewhat thought out or it will be criticized. I will give props to people on these forums with the courage to share their ideas.

Not surprised you White Knighting these people just like you White Knight your own code. If someone makes a positive post about a current implementation your entire team likes it. If someone criticizes you guys are first to jump in and defend. Nobody can even respond before a dev is in there telling us how its only a small dev team. Like anyone who has ever read 1 forum thread doesn't already know this. You don't think that's what is causing the forums to dry up???? Seriously. Imagine if a teacher has a little discussion at the end of class where the teacher gathers people in a circle and asks for feedback on the lesson, anyone that says it was a good lesson the teacher is up there patting them all on the back thanking them profusely. The moment one person barely says something negative the teacher is up there massive defending their position, saying things like "I am only one person what can you expect" LOL what you think the others are going to do?

Kind of like your Emberdrift implementation, if you would have put that out there, people could have come back with a better idea. Now you going to tell us there is not enough time to change it because you have a small dev team. Typical.

Not sure why you are so afraid of my opinion anyway. Its not like there aren't people on here willing to speak up and call me out and defend this game. I guess if your skin is so thin that even a whisper of negative thought can pierce, every opposing view must be stamped out. Don't act like its only me that is having this issue. I remember when you said anyone that uses a LOL emoji is toxic. I noticed you had no problem when your defenders used them, only when its an opposing viewpoint.

You know, I have no issues at all if people peer review my ideas, sometimes people even improve on them, imagine that!

This will likely be my last comment unless someone pulls me back in. This argument is feeling rather repetitive, and I already know you going to tell me how my sarcasm is the problem, been there done that with you.

 

[Dalton]

Peace out

 

[Undone]

Did you even read my post? I’m not even sure where to start.

So lets think here, you have people feeding you info without any peer review at all. Additionally I never see you throw these ideas back out to the community to see what their opinions are. Got to wonder how good these ideas are, that people are so afraid to have any sort of debate on them at all.

You know someone on your staff could post these unreviewed ideas for consideration before implementation right? Throw them out to your team and your beta testers? See what the community thinks before you spend a bunch of time thinking about and coding a bad idea? Especially with a small team and all, run it a few weeks and see what pops out. Why are people so scared to have there opinions tested and criticized? If you had a forum with proper debate, you might actually see a rise in interest for this game. Yeah I know its a foreign concept that actually letting players discuss ideas can actually attract people.

The feedback I receive is typically feedback on their experiences with the current systems; not everything needs to be a new idea on how to revamp a system. And don't lecture me about peer review as I am well aware of how that works in an academic sense. You seem to think that this project is designed by group-think where the community is the one designing the game; this is not the case. But hey, if your ideas are so great you should probably be out there pitching them to investors and putting your own team together.

Not surprised you White Knighting these people just like you White Knight your own code. If someone makes a positive post about a current implementation your entire team likes it. If someone criticizes you guys are first to jump in and defend. Nobody can even respond before a dev is in there telling us how its only a small dev team. Like anyone who has ever read 1 forum thread doesn't already know this. You don't think that's what is causing the forums to dry up???? Seriously. Imagine if a teacher has a little discussion at the end of class where the teacher gathers people in a circle and asks for feedback on the lesson, anyone that says it was a good lesson the teacher is up there patting them all on the back thanking them profusely. The moment one person barely says something negative the teacher is up there massive defending their position, saying things like "I am only one person what can you expect" LOL what you think the others are going to do?

Apparently you did not read a word of what I wrote above. Thanks for spending the time to thoughtfully respond.

Kind of like your Emberdrift implementation, if you would have put that out there, people could have come back with a better idea. Now you going to tell us there is not enough time to change it because you have a small dev team. Typical.

You realize that Emberdrifts have been implemented for over a year right? It just hasn't been enabled as of late. That's fine though. Continue making assumptions about what we are doing, how we are doing, and why we are doing it. Typical.

Not sure why you are so afraid of my opinion anyway. Its not like there aren't people on here willing to speak up and call me out and defend this game. I guess if your skin is so thin that even a whisper of negative thought can pierce, every opposing view must be stamped out. Don't act like its only me that is having this issue. I remember when you said anyone that uses a LOL emoji is toxic. I noticed you had no problem when your defenders used them, only when its an opposing viewpoint.

You know, I have no issues at all if people peer review my ideas, sometimes people even improve on them, imagine that!

This will likely be my last comment unless someone pulls me back in. This argument is feeling rather repetitive, and I already know you going to tell me how my sarcasm is the problem, been there done that with you.

I'm not sure why you continue to think that we're afraid of your opinions. I like your opinions. You're frequently spot on with many of your critiques. Does that mean that we have the resources to implement those changes and implement all of your suggested fixes? I think you know the answer to that.

But notice how this thread has once again been hijacked by you soap boxing? This whole thing between us really has absolutely nothing to do with the content of your feedback. It really seems as though you are the one with hurt feelings at this point. You are more than welcome here. At the end of the day all we're asking is that you stop being an ass hole in your delivery.