Economy in Games

[MrDDT]

Diablo 2 was also more direct trading. People had no problems waiting out for any commissions out there. I'm surprised that game is still alive as well as Albion. Diablo 2 gear is anything but lackluster. From what I've seen what keeps an online game alive is the community.
I also feel like direct trading fits more into the traveler/adventurer feel of Embers Adrift.

MMO vs small (like 4 person) hosted locally servers.

I don't think you can compare to the two games (Diablo 2 and Embers)
Direct trading was really bad in that game, it was full of scams and just not good.

If you are forced to direct trade only, it will be a very sad economy. People are not going to want to spam chat and read that spam etc etc. It's really going to just kill the economy. If this is the plan, you might as well say there is no economy in the game.

 

[innosa]

MMO vs small (like 4 person) hosted locally servers.

I don't think you can compare to the two games (Diablo 2 and Embers)
Direct trading was really bad in that game, it was full of scams and just not good.

If you are forced to direct trade only, it will be a very sad economy. People are not going to want to spam chat and read that spam etc etc. It's really going to just kill the economy. If this is the plan, you might as well say there is no economy in the game.

Scams or not, they will always happen. There's still more human interaction in trading than an AH. It will help you get to know other people more through trade.

 

[Kittik]

If you are forced to direct trade only, it will be a very sad economy. People are not going to want to spam chat and read that spam etc etc. It's really going to just kill the economy. If this is the plan, you might as well say there is no economy in the game.

A large issue here is too many people remember, erroneously, ECL Tunnels. It wasn't a fun aspect of the game, it was a pita that had to happened because they (Verant) didn't know how or have the ability to do something better. Requiring people to stand around a spam a chat channel is the least player friendly way to do any sort of trading. Especially in today's world where our play sessions are no longer open ended days long caffeine fueled bangers. If it were so great, it would already exist in the game as it currently is. The game in it's current state is the most applicable state for this type of player system, yet it doesn't exist. Continually saying to do something like this because it's remembered fondly is such a bad argument, because you are only remembering good things fondly and it's guaranteed to turn people off to the game.

 

[innosa]

If the AH is driven like a real auction house that runs real time. Like putting a random item up to have it bid right then and there then it would be more immersive and communal. And if you're not there to bid you lose out on the chance. And of course you can't just buy the item. It's called a auction house not a marketplace.

 

[Svann]

Im fine with most designs, except I dont like when people are forced to spam general/world channel to sell stuff. If there is buying and selling there needs to be a way to sell without spam.

 

[RazorBrains]

The problem with player to player trade system is it doesn't work very well. This game should have a vibrant trade system as currently setup. Reagents and materials should being bought and sold like hot cakes due to rarity. Yet the economy in game is one of the worst I have ever seen. At best you can call it a barter system, however that doesn't even work well. Here are some reasons I seen.

So I see someone spamming global all day for a reagent that I have been holding in my bank (in my precious few shared bank spots). I have so many of these particular reagents that I really want to offload them. However what the person is wanting to trade them for is not even something I need. So then I think, fine I will just give them the reagents so I can free up this bank slot, that I am sick of it wasting. However they are 30 minutes away from me, I will have to leave group, run 30 minutes to hand it off, then 30 minutes back. I cant have him run to me, because my shared bank is 30 minutes away with zero access from where I am. When hours later I finally make it back to the shared bank after group is over, the person is no longer logged in. So I just sell the reagent to a vendor in frustration because I need the bank spot back.

Ok so there are some of the common problems right in that 1 story.

1) Low inventory space to hold items trade.
2) No gold in the game because everyone is prioritizing the bank slots (see number 1)
3) Barter system is unreliable because you may not even need what they have to trade
4) No recall, fast travel, or summons to actually make the trade quickly.
5) Log in times for buyers and sellers vary, so even if a perfect match, you are not on at the same time.
6) Its better to just craft your own stuff, or get it free from friends.

TLDR Player vendors or Auction house is necessary for trade for an economy in this game period. You need something as a buyer to be able to go to buy items. Sellers need somewhere to sell at their convenience.

 

[Elloa]

At the moment, we have no economy in game at all... Or almost not. Poeple are handing over stuff. Not selling them. I've seen a few people bartening, but it's not the majority. Majority is just offering stuff for free.
I wonder how much of that generous behaviour will continue post launch

I think we will not see any economy and realy trading behaviour until launch. Our plans so far is to try out players only trade at launch, and then see what the community want if its not working as we hoped.

 

[Randy Magnum]

Hi Elloa,
Would it be possible to get a separate Chat Tab for Trade if it is only player to player trading? Otherwise, chat will be spammed with offers to sell or offers to buy. People would probably want a global channel to spam too.

 

[Elloa]

Hi Elloa,
Would it be possible to get a separate Chat Tab for Trade if it is only player to player trading? Otherwise, chat will be spammed with offers to sell or offers to buy. People would probably want a global channel to spam too.

That's a very possible solution for launch.
We are still unsure whether the "Global" chat will stay after the test or not, so Trade may replace it.

 

[Kittik]

At the moment, we have no economy in game at all... Or almost not. Poeple are handing over stuff. Not selling them. I've seen a few people bartening, but it's not the majority. Majority is just offering stuff for free.
I wonder how much of that generous behaviour will continue post launch

I think we will not see any economy and realy trading behaviour until launch. Our plans so far is to try out players only trade at launch, and then see what the community want if its not working as we hoped.

I think there are obvious reasons for this.

1) Wipes still happen.
2) We don't know what system will be in place. We haven't been told there will be a system, we haven't been told there won't be a system so people are just like...ehh...why bother.
3) The aggrivation of limited bank space bothers people so much they dont' want to deal with trading and just trash or sell.

 

[innosa]

At the moment, we have no economy in game at all... Or almost not. Poeple are handing over stuff. Not selling them. I've seen a few people bartening, but it's not the majority. Majority is just offering stuff for free.
I wonder how much of that generous behaviour will continue post launch

I think we will not see any economy and realy trading behaviour until launch. Our plans so far is to try out players only trade at launch, and then see what the community want if its not working as we hoped.

It would be nice to have a mail system where you can mail items as well.

 

[Lazlo Dec]

I have never been able to have my own shop. I do see an issue with having to need places to put everyone's personal place of business. So tell me if a system where I would could have a summoned/animation assembled pack creature/tent that I could place on side of road way, that would persist while I was in that zone and online. Limited slots let's say 4. For the sake of conversation start point. A price per unit set on each slot with each slot having set limits. Item weight could be a factor if creature is used. People can stop and purchase items available. You would have to refill it obviously. When empty it would despawn with a notice to player. Sold out or some such. Avoiding people staying logged in just to save spot. Afk empty, spot available. I could go deeper but I need sleep. If not a remote possibility let me know so I can file it away for another time.

Enjoying The Flame
Lazlo dec

 

[Lazlo Dec]

I have never been able to have my own shop. I do see an issue with having to need places to put everyone's personal place of business. So tell me if a system where I would could have a summoned/animation assembled pack creature/tent that I could place on side of road way, that would persist while I was in that zone and online. Limited slots let's say 4. For the sake of conversation start point. A price per unit set on each slot with each slot having set limits. Item weight could be a factor if creature is used. People can stop and purchase items available. You would have to refill it obviously. When empty it would despawn with a notice to player. Sold out or some such. Avoiding people staying logged in just to save spot. Afk empty, spot available. I could go deeper but I need sleep. If not a remote possibility let me know so I can file it away for another time.

Enjoying The Flame
Lazlo dec

To continue this thought.
Maybe player shop/vendor could be faction/profession specific. Only 1 per tool.

Such as display/item shops are a consortium faction based (or bonus slots/storage amount limit).

Blacksmith get repair anvil (which would have slots for ore/gems) for on the go repairing. No player in dungeon/raid spawn though. Cost to player same as if in town, owner gets it though.

People who are grouped can place personal shop together, Example: Lazlo would place his display shop, then group member Norfen can place there Anvil in close proximity to offer more services at that location.(Partners/Co-op/Inc)

To be continued...

 

[Lazlo Dec]

To continue this thought.
Maybe player shop/vendor could be faction/profession specific. Only 1 per tool.

Such as display/item shops are a consortium faction based (or bonus slots/storage amount limit).

Blacksmith get repair anvil (which would have slots for ore/gems) for on the go repairing. No player in dungeon/raid spawn though. Cost to player same as if in town, owner gets it though.

People who are grouped can place personal shop together, Example: Lazlo would place his display shop, then group member Norfen can place there Anvil in close proximity to offer more services at that location.(Partners/Co-op/Inc)

To be continued...

Cont... (sorry this makes you sad MrDDtt)

A Guild owned shop could however, have a permanent location.
In this area all guild members would have their own kiosk with items avaliable for members/random customers/order request listings/listing for guild wants.
Percentage of sales goes into a guild fund.

 

[Xeen]

At the moment, we have no economy in game at all... Or almost not. Poeple are handing over stuff. Not selling them. I've seen a few people bartening, but it's not the majority. Majority is just offering stuff for free.
I wonder how much of that generous behaviour will continue post launch

I think we will not see any economy and realy trading behaviour until launch. Our plans so far is to try out players only trade at launch, and then see what the community want if its not working as we hoped.

@MrDDT is trying to scalp me for 2 Gold for an item It's simply much easier to group up and hope for the best while gaining some experience, having fun, working on skinning, etc than it is to get 2G!

I'll get there eventually. Of course, I'll also eventually max out my storage space and have no more need for gold, hmmm....

Ok that's a problem. Beyond storage, basic goods/getting started, and repair bills, gold or currency is worthless. It is very limited, so saturating your needs takes awhile, but there is no true gold silk from the economy or valuable use of the gold once expanding your inventory is completed.

Adding things like Masters who must be sought out to improve your skills also extends the lifespan of needing gold, but this doesn't create a loop, just a more distant finish line.

Same as crafting, without decay and loss (or meaningful ways to sink gold from players' pockets), saturation and devaluation is inevitable.

Hmm, starting to sound like real-world issues.

Waiting to see what the city and future updates hold!

 

[Kittik]

I think with the introduction of Tier II skills (and beyond) they could do something like Masters (ala EQ2). Instead of just "giving" a player the 2nd, 3rd, 4th skill etc. they could be skills that need to be purchased.

 

[Xeen]

I think with the introduction of Tier II skills (and beyond) they could do something like Masters (ala EQ2). Instead of just "giving" a player the 2nd, 3rd, 4th skill etc. they could be skills that need to be purchased.

Yeah, that could be a thing, but still it's only a 1-time purchase which delays the saturation of gold.

Where's the 'sink' the exit of gold from the economy on a regular and continued basis after all these 1-off expenses?

 

[Xavure]

At the moment, we have no economy in game at all... Or almost not. Poeple are handing over stuff. Not selling them. I've seen a few people bartening, but it's not the majority. Majority is just offering stuff for free.
I wonder how much of that generous behaviour will continue post launch

I think we will not see any economy and realy trading behaviour until launch. Our plans so far is to try out players only trade at launch, and then see what the community want if its not working as we hoped.

I understand your point of view on this and that you might lack the men power, but you are going straight into a wall with this.

This game needs a trading system before launch and a way for player to trade easily aka fast traveling, recall …..whatever suits your vision to help facilitate theses trades.

This forum post is the proof that you need it, look at all the votes and all the replies, almost nobody want a player to player trade only. Will you listen to the 20% or the 80%?

 

[RazorBrains]

Yeah, that could be a thing, but still it's only a 1-time purchase which delays the saturation of gold.

Where's the 'sink' the exit of gold from the economy on a regular and continued basis after all these 1-off expenses?

Yeah the only way I see this happening, is to add vendor only purchased reagents that combine with materials to create items. Like the flux they added to the game really should be a vendor purchase item, so people will sink gold into it. Similar to water/bottles. Doing this for consumables and things like grinding stones and enchantments will draw gold out of the economy. Another way is to make it where a vendor purchase consumable is required to combine with reagents to make an even better reagent/consumable. Where say you can still use the raw reagent, but crafting a reagent using raw reagents unlocks it larger potential.

Although getting the formula/cost correctly balanced is difficult.

Purchasing things like reagents and stuff just transfers wealth from one person to another. Eventually there is going to be super inflation.

 

[Ragnar]

In my opinion, the style of trading/selling that best fits this game depends on what the end game development it meant to look like and the target population. If you only expect to have 200 people online at a time, direct trading from character to character probably isn't viable. Also, if the distances are so great that to get that copper ingot from Bob you have to run 45 minutes, that won't work either. Regional AHs will only work if you have regions. Right now, we really don't. I am not sure the overall scope of the map nor what the reality of that will become. Also, our current chat system in game does not support a trade channel and if we have any significant number of players, trade spam will be so bad, not to mention gold spammers, that you will have a very hard time finding a trading partner for the services/goods you are seeking as is will scroll by too quickly. I do not in any way like the Path of Exile out of game sales method either. Also, with our limited inventory issues, you aren't going to want to travel a long distance filled with 5 or 6 items to sell and not be able to gather net items or materials along the way, especially as the map gets larger and the distance traveled increases. If you make the ability to sell/buy from other players too arduous, few will use the system and the economy will die and those that enjoy that aspect of a game will move on.

With that said, there seems to be a portion of the community that wants this to be a slow, plodding, unpleasant and low population game. Some plead for realism then throw that out the window when it doesn't support their new desire for a system in the game. To accurately and usefully assist in positive and beneficial suggestions/feedback/input to the developers, we really need to have a decent understanding of the game release targets with respect to desired map size and player population as these have a very significant impact on many things not the least of which is how to craft a functional economy and trade system.

If we have 1 city, a global and a regional AH is the same thing. An AH allows the developer to adjust market taxes/costs to help balance the in game cash flow and have a coinage sink. I like regional resources and, to a degree, so far we have that as resources are somewhat tiered to the mob levels they are around. That said, not sure how far one would have to go to go from T1 to T5 resources. That would determine if regional AHs would be feasible. Same goes for crafted items. You are likely to make crafted items where the tier of the materials are available for the items you are crafting. Now with nothing being BOP/BOE currently, that means a market for all items including the very rare named drops. The distribution of wanted named drops will determine, again, if regional AHs are reasonable or not. If you never have to travel any great distance to go from a T1 to a T5 resource, then regional AHs won't work and a global AH might as well be used.

If we do go with a regional AH, you could always allow purchasing remotely and requiring physically going to the location to pick up the purchased item. You could also allow a fee, hopefully distance based, to have a 'merchant caravan' deliver your purchase to the AH you chose to work out of. You could also pay a 'merchant caravan' to port your items to a distant AH and place them up for sale at the price you wish to sell them for. You could also allow personal vendors, or even 'market days' as some have mentioned and allow those to not have the AH fees and help focus more player to player interactions on those days to help bring that social feeling some have mentioned to the economy as well. Removing the AH fees with personal vendors might result in lower costs for the items or at least remove the overhead of selling on the AH and motivate more participation on those days. It will, of course, bypass the money sink aspect but the need to travel and potentially go vendor to vendor trying to find what you want may still make some folks prefer the AHs. And if the vendors are only on market days and not full time, then the AHs still would play a pivotal role.

I am a crafter/resource gathering/economy kind of player. These subjects are near and dear to me. I fully understand they aren't to all players. I think it is possible to devise a system that can be used by those that want it and ignored by those that don't or only use the parts a player wishes without ruining the game for anyone.