Economy in Games

[Vigor]

I'm not some famous merchant but here I go:

 

[Kittik]

I'm not some famous merchant but here I go:

Hmm...yes, I do like this idea. Very interestng.

 

[Randy Magnum]

Not sure I have seen a Unity game with an AH. Project Gorgon (one of the larger Unity games I have seen) had player stalls (not sure if its change lately). I don't know if it was a lore issue or a code issue though. New World had an AH and commission system all in one. You could buy off the AH or put in a buy order. I would rather an AH than a commission only system just because I would rather be able to get an item right away. I think of commission systems more for crafting mats and not for example a type of sword.

 

[Rev]

Realistically there isn't the time, funds or personnel for an AH to be in by launch. For this MMO (because all are different), I would prefer it to be kept a player to player trading.
1. It fits the style of the MMO better.
2. AH's just encourage bots, gold sellers and flippers.
3. For those who don't want to collect mats, most will end up finding a few people who do like to and will set up their own supply deals with them. They won't want to pay market price for bulk purchasing of mats. This encourages interaction and also rewards those whose game might be more crafting focused than fighting.
4. With only 6 trade skills in the game, you won't have to look far to find someone who can supply you with what you need. You can do 1/3 of them yourself if you choose to, all 6 if you use all 3 character slots. I just don't see it being difficult to find crafters.
5. With p2p trading, players will find places to congregate and trade their wares making hubs of activity in the game.
6. Bartering may happen where I trade my goods for yours and not all transactions will require gold to exchange hands. I got leather and you got ore? Let's make a deal!
7. Add a global trade chat channel so people don't spam Global. Keep global so new players can communicate with veterans who are no longer in the early zones.

 

[Nedrith]

Shops with the option of a direct trade option. EQ market areas were always fun to walk around while going up to an AH and just easily buying things is kind of boring. A trade channel with people offering things and meeting with them for direct trade is also a good option. Makes the game feel more alive when people have a reason to advertise their wares.

 

[innosa]

It would definitely get interesting if you can buy items from merchant NPCs that other players have sold to them. Like the stuff they would buyback you can also buy their sold items off the NPC but that's just me. Would just introduce a whole new weird player competition mechanic but through buying.

 

[MrDDT]

Realistically there isn't the time, funds or personnel for an AH to be in by launch. For this MMO (because all are different), I would prefer it to be kept a player to player trading.
1. It fits the style of the MMO better.
2. AH's just encourage bots, gold sellers and flippers.
3. For those who don't want to collect mats, most will end up finding a few people who do like to and will set up their own supply deals with them. They won't want to pay market price for bulk purchasing of mats. This encourages interaction and also rewards those whose game might be more crafting focused than fighting.
4. With only 6 trade skills in the game, you won't have to look far to find someone who can supply you with what you need. You can do 1/3 of them yourself if you choose to, all 6 if you use all 3 character slots. I just don't see it being difficult to find crafters.
5. With p2p trading, players will find places to congregate and trade their wares making hubs of activity in the game.
6. Bartering may happen where I trade my goods for yours and not all transactions will require gold to exchange hands. I got leather and you got ore? Let's make a deal!
7. Add a global trade chat channel so people don't spam Global. Keep global so new players can communicate with veterans who are no longer in the early zones.

Realistically, this is not true. AH can take only a small amount of time to set up, its not even hard to code. The issue is all the things around the Global AH. Things like mail system, duration of times of items, taxes/fees etc etc.


I feel like currently regional AH is likely the best option as most people will want an AH of some type vs all the others. Personally I think AH should be global like our stashes.

 

[innosa]

Realistically there isn't the time, funds or personnel for an AH to be in by launch. For this MMO (because all are different), I would prefer it to be kept a player to player trading.
1. It fits the style of the MMO better.
2. AH's just encourage bots, gold sellers and flippers.
3. For those who don't want to collect mats, most will end up finding a few people who do like to and will set up their own supply deals with them. They won't want to pay market price for bulk purchasing of mats. This encourages interaction and also rewards those whose game might be more crafting focused than fighting.
4. With only 6 trade skills in the game, you won't have to look far to find someone who can supply you with what you need. You can do 1/3 of them yourself if you choose to, all 6 if you use all 3 character slots. I just don't see it being difficult to find crafters.
5. With p2p trading, players will find places to congregate and trade their wares making hubs of activity in the game.
6. Bartering may happen where I trade my goods for yours and not all transactions will require gold to exchange hands. I got leather and you got ore? Let's make a deal!
7. Add a global trade chat channel so people don't spam Global. Keep global so new players can communicate with veterans who are no longer in the early zones.

I do like player to player trading could also be a way for players to come in touch between professions and also remember who has what to sell. We will know others by their professions as well and keep track of it.

I am wondering, would a Commission House work better than an Auction House, with people trying to jack up prices on items? Instead of listing items on the AH that people could buy, you would list what you are willing to buy (would have to include a quality level for armor/weapons), the price you will pay, and how many you want.

If someone wanted to jack up the price of Tin Ore, they'd have to put up a commission for 10,000 pieces and pay the money cost up-front. But to sell, they'd have to use /auction channels or wait for someone else to put up a commission for tin ore. People might still raise the price they will pay on commission, but I suspect it wouldn't go as high as quickly. Using the commission system, people will already be expecting it might take 24 hours to get what they are commissioning. Even then, nobody might be willing to pay the offered price.

The problem would then be crafters who want something NOW in order to craft something, or raiders needing a potion NOW, would not be able to get it that quickly. They would still have to use /auction channels and possibly pay high prices.

I do like the idea of commission requests. Like put up notices for items wanted and maybe even ask someone to craft something for you. But it should remain a notice you would have to still meet the person online and have it done. I do think it's something to think about though people might already do this on Discord channels. Commissions because you wouldn't know who to mail to if there is a mail system in the game. After you get the commission made you can put "mail me" or something along those lines, "whisper me at 5/2/2022 3:00 PM" or something like that.

 

[Shadex]

Embers Adrift seems to be hoping to steer away from the currently carbon copy WoW, FF14 model and look to embrace more social interaction and dependence. Having a global auction house as we see in games like those completely guts the very premise of socialization and reduces most players to AFK bots standing at auction house NPC running API scripts and sell trackers. If we want an economic model that wants to fall anywhere near what as far as I can tell they are looking to accomplish here then regional or player shops are the only viable option. SWG, DAoC, UO, all games with fantastic economic systems that many players to this day tout as being some of the best ever created. Even EvE with its global search capabilities required the products be moved and bidding from a distance takes times to learn those skills. Global faceless market systems in Embers in my opinion would be like opening a restaurant based on the concept of cozy, intimate, atmosphere and then installing a drive through.

 

[MrDDT]

Few things to note that while you are just listing off names of MMO's that have a good econ and no AH.
EvE does have an AH.
It also can transfer goods without going to that location.
UO has a massively fast travel system (You could teleport exactly to the vendor)
I never played SWG and DAoC I can't remember, but I wanted to just point that out.

There is a very big difference from WOW and FF14 and regional AH like New World.

 

[innosa]

Embers Adrift seems to be hoping to steer away from the currently carbon copy WoW, FF14 model and look to embrace more social interaction and dependence. Having a global auction house as we see in games like those completely guts the very premise of socialization and reduces most players to AFK bots standing at auction house NPC running API scripts and sell trackers. If we want an economic model that wants to fall anywhere near what as far as I can tell they are looking to accomplish here then regional or player shops are the only viable option. SWG, DAoC, UO, all games with fantastic economic systems that many players to this day tout as being some of the best ever created. Even EvE with its global search capabilities required the products be moved and bidding from a distance takes times to learn those skills. Global faceless market systems in Embers in my opinion would be like opening a restaurant based on the concept of cozy, intimate, atmosphere and then installing a drive through.

It also encourages players to login go nowhere further than the AH and mailbox then log off.

 

[MrDDT]

It also encourages players to login go nowhere further than the AH and mailbox then log off.

It's very well the other way, instead of wasting unfun time running from town to town or finding someone in a bad person to person only trading system which again is like unfun and almost punishing in trying to find that type of trade.
They can get/trade/sell etc items and get into things they want to do that are fun, whether it's gathering or crafting, or killing or grouping etc etc.

Unless you believe it's fun to run to another town to get an item you want to buy, or sell.

 

[innosa]

It's very well the other way, instead of wasting unfun time running from town to town or finding someone in a bad person to person only trading system which again is like unfun and almost punishing in trying to find that type of trade.
They can get/trade/sell etc items and get into things they want to do that are fun, whether it's gathering or crafting, or killing or grouping etc etc.

Unless you believe it's fun to run to another town to get an item you want to buy, or sell.

Trading should be part of the gameplay. An elaborate system is the trading you do with different people, if someone is trying to rip you off you have to use your sense to figure that out. It's just like tanking and healing you got to adapt to how players think and move. It might become tougher to do but then you learn from it and it builds a community along with it.

 

[MrDDT]

Trading should be part of the gameplay. An elaborate system is the trading you do with different people, if someone is trying to rip you off you have to use your sense to figure that out. It's just like tanking and healing you got to adapt to how players think and move. It might become tougher to do but then you learn from it and it builds a community along with it.

I will pass on games allowing scamming/rip you off. I don't think this is a feature I think it's bad for any game.

I feel that trading should be part of all games and I also don't think it should be a chore to do it. I don't thing I need to spam global or a trade channel to hope someone is online to be able to get a service or buy/sell an item. Its not fun to all parties.

I know very few people are very opposed to an AH. However, most people like AH's because they work to remove the issues of scams and help make it less of a bother for people to sell or buy items they want.

 

[Pelirow]

I'm trying to remember what was discussed on this topic by the SHS folks already, but one thing to keep in mind: there will be only one major city at launch. Thus, any "AH" would be in that one city. I believe what was discussed before was a posting board sort of system, where people could post what they had for sale or what they wanted, then direct contact needed to sent, This would create some issues with players not consistently on at the same time, so there likely could be some delivery service within the city for players to go to and pick up items, with some limits/fees.

I'm more curious how the game is going to make the economy sustainable when everything is tradeable. Time will tell.

 

[Dalton]

I'm trying to remember what was discussed on this topic by the SHS folks already, but one thing to keep in mind: there will be only one major city at launch. Thus, any "AH" would be in that one city. I believe what was discussed before was a posting board sort of system, where people could post what they had for sale or what they wanted, then direct contact needed to sent, This would create some issues with players not consistently on at the same time, so there likely could be some delivery service within the city for players to go to and pick up items, with some limits/fees.

I'm more curious how the game is going to make the economy sustainable when everything is tradeable. Time will tell.

Albion does well with absolutely everything in the game being tradeable lol. The economy is huge part of that game. There are lots of people like me who will never care to craft or farm stuff and will just go buy it.

 

[MrDDT]

Albion does well with absolutely everything in the game being tradeable lol. The economy is huge part of that game. There are lots of people like me who will never care to craft or farm stuff and will just go buy it.

This is a PVP based game where the gear is lackluster and top end gear is pretty commonly made and not custom at all. Its because all your gear is droppable and looted on death. So people are often losing their gear.

I don't think any of that really fits well into this style of PVE game.

 

[innosa]

Albion does well with absolutely everything in the game being tradeable lol. The economy is huge part of that game. There are lots of people like me who will never care to craft or farm stuff and will just go buy it.

Diablo 2 was also more direct trading. People had no problems waiting out for any commissions out there. I'm surprised that game is still alive as well as Albion. Diablo 2 gear is anything but lackluster. From what I've seen what keeps an online game alive is the community.
I also feel like direct trading fits more into the traveler/adventurer feel of Embers Adrift.

 

[gamealot]

This would be great fit for the concept of ”server projects”. This was done extensively in ‘a tale in the desert” but not adapted much in other mmos. Start with player shops that you can set up in newhaven, all in the same spot and searchable if you are at that spot (ie shopping in the city). But have nodes all over newhaven for server wide projects that allow the players to grow the city organically By donating resources to them. when it gets all it needs it gets built.

One “expansion tree” would be an auction house with add ons for more drop points “trading posts” in each zone…so the players grow the trade capability organically by contributing to the server project (which would be mostly the resources you would need to build it - wood, nails, etc).

you could do a lot with server projects - coach service across zones, gaurd patrols, better merchant shops as tech increases, high level crafting also needs the server tech activated, etc…

this concept could also be applied to server events…goblin invasion! players need to contribute resources/kill mob type to stem the tide! Each day they (collectively) make the basic goal they hold it off and it doesnt grow. Each day they make the bonus goal the invasion is pushed back and some of the mobs are removed. If they do nothing, the goblins keep growing day to day until they overrun the affected zone. Ultimate victory provides some server reward and/or opens up a new dungeon “goblin caves”. Which you could add a trading post (auction house node) to the entrance with an additional add on project

 

[innosa]

This would be great fit for the concept of ”server projects”. This was done extensively in ‘a tale in the desert” but not adapted much in other mmos. Start with player shops that you can set up in newhaven, all in the same spot and searchable if you are at that spot (ie shopping in the city). But have nodes all over newhaven for server wide projects that allow the players to grow the city organically By donating resources to them. when it gets all it needs it gets built.

One “expansion tree” would be an auction house with add ons for more drop points “trading posts” in each zone…so the players grow the trade capability organically by contributing to the server project (which would be mostly the resources you would need to build it - wood, nails, etc).

you could do a lot with server projects - coach service across zones, gaurd patrols, better merchant shops as tech increases, high level crafting also needs the server tech activated, etc…

this concept could also be applied to server events…goblin invasion! players need to contribute resources/kill mob type to stem the tide! Each day they (collectively) make the basic goal they hold it off and it doesnt grow. Each day they make the bonus goal the invasion is pushed back and some of the mobs are removed. If they do nothing, the goblins keep growing day to day until they overrun the affected zone. Ultimate victory provides some server reward and/or opens up a new dungeon “goblin caves”. Which you could add a trading post (auction house node) to the entrance with an additional add on project

Something like the AQ war effort from WoW would be interesting. Quests that involve gathering resources for an upcoming war and how it can change the outcome of the war. Gather ore, herbs, food and you can hand them into NPCs. That's the kind of slow but uniting community event that makes it fun

It's also a way for lower levels to feel like they contributed into a higher level event as well. Even if they aren't present in that war they would gather resources from South Newhaven and help out. There can be minor rewards in it as well.