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Content and Level Concentration

RazorBrains

Active Member
My impressions as a new player is that you are not taking advantage of the content you have. This game needs to really utilize all the content it has, but as it stands I feel like someone mostly is going to miss it all. We did smugglers and exiles never had to move.

I leveled from 1-11 in basically a 24 hour period in 2 groups and a little solo without even having to move camps.

A new player trying to figure out the UI will be mainly solo or duo until at least level 4 or 5, and you could push that until level 8, by making the camps all higher level.

I would increase the level of the bear camps and smuggler camps to at least level 10+ so that groups of level 8's and below need to stay around town in small groups as they learn the game, and that groups of level 8+ can start working on camps.

Another thing was it seemed like a lack of content, mainly because I blew through the levels by staying at 1 camp and not even seeing the other camps. These camps should be at different levels more spread out so people have to move camps after a few levels to continue getting efficient XP. Currently it seems to many camps are the same level.

Finally I heard there was a low level dungeon, I completely missed this. Again I blew through the levels so fast I missed this content. This dungeon should be at least level 14+ under the current design. Just because newbs are not going to understand dungeon grouping mechanics this early.
 

Pelirow

Active Member
Some of the content and availability will likely change once questing and NPCs are re-implemented. Ideally, with a normal server pop the ability to just stay at one location indefinitely simply won't be possible so people will move around based on what areas are available for grouping.

I too completely missed over the first dungeon and frankly have yet to go into any dungeon. It's been exiles at hilltop behind camp 3 in SNH, then Exiles behind Ravenrock, then exiles in meadows so I hear you on the seemingly simple levelling progression. I hope and believe that it won't be as simple when there are hundreds on the server as opposed to 25-50 peeps.
 

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
The first zone is meant to be an introduction to the game for levels 1-6; a "tutorial" zone if you will. With such a narrow level range it doesn't give us a lot of room to spread the levels out. The first dungeon can be completely skipped if you like, but again, it's meant to serve as an introduction to a) the underground system, and b) dungeons & group mechanics.
 

RazorBrains

Active Member
The first zone is meant to be an introduction to the game for levels 1-6; a "tutorial" zone if you will. With such a narrow level range it doesn't give us a lot of room to spread the levels out. The first dungeon can be completely skipped if you like, but again, it's meant to serve as an introduction to a) the underground system, and b) dungeons & group mechanics.

I hear your point, but what's the point of building a dungeon if the people don't go to it? No way new players are going into a dungeon unless its an alt. Either way you have content just sitting there being skipped that could be used by people in the game.

Personally I wouldn't have a dungeon in a tutorial area, unless its extremely easy to get into and do SOLO. Because most people new to a game will be solo/duo until they at least learn some of the UI, how to use abilities, or even how to form a group. The way it is now, you are going to level right past that dungeon and never even see it. I was in a group of random people yesterday and only 1 person in the group seen the dungeon, and they went through it on an alt with someone that was higher level guiding them through it. In another large group I was in, a couple people knew where it was, but never was in it.

Seems like wasted content to me.
 

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
I hear your point, but what's the point of building a dungeon if the people don't go to it? No way new players are going into a dungeon unless its an alt. Either way you have content just sitting there being skipped that could be used by people in the game.

Personally I wouldn't have a dungeon in a tutorial area, unless its extremely easy to get into and do SOLO. Because most people new to a game will be solo/duo until they at least learn some of the UI, how to use abilities, or even how to form a group. The way it is now, you are going to level right past that dungeon and never even see it. I was in a group of random people yesterday and only 1 person in the group seen the dungeon, and they went through it on an alt with someone that was higher level guiding them through it. In another large group I was in, a couple people knew where it was, but never was in it.

Seems like wasted content to me.
Plenty of folks have spent plenty of time exploring the dungeon for their own enjoyment. Again - it's an introduction to the dungeon system for players who decide to spend some time there. Just because content exists that you don't personally experience doesn't make it a waste. Providing multiple areas provides the players with a choice of which content they want to experience as they progress.
 

RazorBrains

Active Member
Plenty of folks have spent plenty of time exploring the dungeon for their own enjoyment. Again - it's an introduction to the dungeon system for players who decide to spend some time there. Just because content exists that you don't personally experience doesn't make it a waste. Providing multiple areas provides the players with a choice of which content they want to experience as they progress.
Well I think that's a valid point. You have access to the data I don't. Just looking at this weekend, I never once heard anyone going to the dungeon. However I seen plenty of groups for both smugglers camps and exiles camps during my leveling process. If I spent the time making a dungeon I would like a high percentage of people to see it. That's just me. If designers prefer people to be spending most of their group time at smugglers/exile camps instead, then that goal is being achieved currently.
 

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
Well I think that's a valid point. You have access to the data I don't. Just looking at this weekend, I never once heard anyone going to the dungeon. However I seen plenty of groups for both smugglers camps and exiles camps during my leveling process. If I spent the time making a dungeon I would like a high percentage of people to see it. That's just me. If designers prefer people to be spending most of their group time at smugglers/exile camps instead, then that goal is being achieved currently.
We will have plenty of other dungeons for players to explore! The one under Newhaven South is relatively small and we're totally fine if people don't end up seeing it.
 

Kittik

Well-Known Member
Nothing wrong with the dungeon in the starter zone being same level as content outside of it. When their are 300 people running around that zone on launch day, I'm sure the most numerous of complaints will be lack of area's to level. Plus, those not just grinding will find it fun to adventure into. Although as is, there isn't much excitement to it. Needs more trolls or goblins.
 

Kittik

Well-Known Member
Well I think that's a valid point. You have access to the data I don't. Just looking at this weekend, I never once heard anyone going to the dungeon. However I seen plenty of groups for both smugglers camps and exiles camps during my leveling process. If I spent the time making a dungeon I would like a high percentage of people to see it. That's just me. If designers prefer people to be spending most of their group time at smugglers/exile camps instead, then that goal is being achieved currently.
You might not have heard people looking for groups for the dungeon because so many people have played this content numerous times and are figuring out/have figured out the quickest way to get exp....and it is not the dungeon. Again, not any fault of the design, but those people that have been here for a few wipes are ready to move beyond SNH and the dungeon there.
 

Elloa

Administrator
Stormhaven Studios
To have a variety of content to propose to players is also important. So they can make choices: "do I want to go camp on Smuggler Hill or do I want to go in the Dungeon?"
Even more important, as you have the possibility to create ALT characters, you may want to play your next character differently.

There will be quest and narrative that will lead players to the Dungeons, so new players will have incentive and clues to explore it. The Dungeon is also important to introduce players to group content. Our game is all about encouraging players to do group content together, and our first dungeon is aimed to introduce players to group play, combat strategy and role synergies. It's important tp introduce this type of gameplay early on, so players not only learn how to play in group, but also how to find group and socialise. This may be something that most players have forgotten how to do , or completly ignore due to how other modern MMORPGS function nowadays :)
 

RazorBrains

Active Member
I love dungeons, I think its a great idea. I think the design of this first dungeon is WAY to complex for newbies and should be in a MUCH MUCH higher zone probably 20+ it should be replaced with a much easier to navigate dungeon. Additionally I am saying large formation grouping dungeons are not appropriate for level 4-8, its way to early. 10+ would be the minimum level appropriate for large groups and would get much more participation so the content wouldn't be wasted. Generally a newbie dungeon is something like a small open cave that can be soloed or small grouped as they become familiar with the UI.

If you are talking about players using ALTS, then that contradicts the point you are using it for new players to group and socialize.

As it stands now most groups are forming in 2-3 camps in the first 2 zones. Obviously that's not taking advantage of the content. So yeah incentivizing players to go to other places is probably a good idea. The question you should be asking is why do players like smugglers, Exiles so much at those levels and use that to balance/improve other areas.

If saying there is going to be a plethora of content and nobody will ever complain about not enough places to go because there is so much it can be wasted with very few players using those areas, then sure, I suppose it wouldn't matter in that case. I seriously doubt that will be the case, I have never seen a game EVER have too much content.
 

Nfab35

Active Member
I honestly think you guys are on the right track.
The first Dungeon introduced in SNH to me was done very well. Yes it might of been a little confusing the first few times I transversed it but the more you run it the easier it gets. I liked the challenge it offered and cannot wait to see what you guys add next.
 

RazorBrains

Active Member
I would like to add, the first dungeon I think is very well designed. Its interestingly complex even in a small space. At first its extremely easy to get turned around or miss a hidden pathway and there is some lighting spots that obscure the actual exit door/path. All this is good as it adds to the mystery of the place. I actually convinced a group to go there for a some hours. Picked up a nice drop off a named mob inside. Unfortunately we all died, we spent a bunch of time trying to figure out where our bags were. They gave up, but I was determined so I suicide ran through the place for an hour, doing so I was actually able to figure out the mapping of the place (and got my bag back). It was so much smaller than I had originally thought and I was actually just going in circles up down and all around. Again brilliant design.

I just think this place should be enjoyed for few levels with incentivized xp/loot tables rather then missed or leveled past quickly.
 

Kittik

Well-Known Member
I think a named spider could be put in there. That would bring 3 spots in which I know nameds would then spawn. For a first dungeon in a game, I think it's is almost perfect. Good place for miners and mushroom hunters, good exp that almost forces you to take your time. And like you said, it seems big, but really isn't, which is great for a newbie dungeon.
 

Pelirow

Active Member
I'm happy to hear people say they thought the starter dungeon was complex or confusing, because the more dynamic and nuanced dungeons are, the longer they can sustain content and keep players engaged. I realllly need to check out that dungeon now...
 

Ravenwolf Silvermoon

Active Member
Hello. The dungeon is a nice place to explore starting out. When starting out, we ended up in the dungeon mainly because, there were no spots available at the time in South Newhaven, it was too crowded, folks camping all the smugglers area. As a group, everyone was level 1 but me, level 2, so most things were red in the dungeons. At the time, red was giving experience, not much, but a tiny amount. Still we were able to defeat 2 chevron mobs in a 5 team group. We explored half of the dungeon (the spiders were too much, so we turned back). But we did managed to explore a lot starting out, got 2-3 levels in the dungeon, some loot. No names.

Am wondering if folks lately not doing dungeons because there are no names showing up like other mmorpg games. Folks just do dungeons to farm name mobs, type of mobs that drops rare items. Or chest farming. Not many folks will want to group for the sake of dungeon exploring lately. Unless there is a name mob or chest somewhere, its hard to find a group. But, there are some, few folks who do not mind the dungeon crawl, the fun of exploring the dungeons, getting lost, getting defeated, backpack runs and asking global for help in backpack recovery.

Also trying to find a group that is compatible with you is difficult. But once you do find a group that you feel comfortable with, compatible with, the game starts to become fun again.
I would like to see more folks grouping for dungeons for the exploration and adventure part. If you get anything along the way and survive and get to the other end of the dungeon or exit/entrance, that's a bonus.

Can't wait to explore the new higher level dungeons with a full group.
 

Kittik

Well-Known Member
People will take the path of least resistance. Getting thru levels quickly is the prioity of the majority of MMO players, regardless of who you think your market is. The dungeon is not the place of least resistance when trying to get levels. It's riskier, it's harder and it's less rewarding. If there were something to entice players to go to the dungeon it would be a different story, but there isn't and these are low levels that everyone is going to burn thru, so why waste time traveling to the dungeon (while passing good camp spots just to get there) when you'd only be there for a couple levels (at most) and then be ready to move on.
 

RazorBrains

Active Member
So I have been thinking on this. The more think about it, I feel this game is really missing an opportunity to stretch its content. Personally with a small team (as we are constantly reminded) the devs should be looking to get the most bang out of the content they have. The reality here is that I would be putting the mobs into level bands. Hypothetical example in the first zone have bear valley area 6-9, smugglers 8-12, Dungeon 10-18 (highest level mobs deeper). I would also make the beginning of those areas where solo players can go with 1^ mobs, with mobs increasing 2^^ 3^^^ deeper in.

This would do a few things:

1) Stretch content so people see more of the world and will think the game is bigger.
2) Put people at similar levels ranges into the same spots so they can easily group up.
3) Solo players will be near group starting areas, and can join with other solo players to form groups to go deeper.

As it stands now, in NNH people just sit in exiles and level through the entire zone. I know I did. I would consider myself an explorer, but few groups want to roam the entire area when just sitting at exiles is easier and can level you through the entire zone. So I ended up missing 95% of the zone, and am now going to meadowlands. Very wasteful of the content.

When launch comes put in code that increases spawn rate dynamical depending on how many of the mobs in that area are being killed per time frame.

When I think of games like WoW, you pretty much are doing all the content in the zones you are starting in. I will grant they had different starting areas based on starting race, however each race was doing 80% of the content for that area at least a little bit. Its the way the system was designed.
 

Kittik

Well-Known Member
I agree and disagree with what your saying. I agree with it in theory, but also disagree because it sounds as if this would force bottle necks and force contested spots at each level. Or are what you were saying was just an example and this example should be replicated multiple times in the starting area?