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Bank space needs serious help

Randy Magnum

Active Member
As a crafter, I have lost the bank management minigame. Storage is usually an issue in mmo's but here, its almost nonexistent (with every character it gets smaller). I have played other unity mmo's that had a shared bank and each character would get a tab. Basically, its the same system but you get another bank page which could be extended like the first, per character. They are arranged in tabs on the side of the bank ui.
We are still in the beginning of the game, and have rare crafting mats to attend with, and all the new reagents to keep. Then there are all the different tiers of mats we have which is only going to get bigger and bigger. A few bars of storage isn't going to come close. Then gear, to keep ,and eventually sell. I think we should have 75 bank spaces a character but even that may be low cause I have no idea on how much resources,reagents, gear there will be at end game. Storage can be very frustrating for a player. Is the purpose of small bank space to deter crafting, or use of alts?
 

Elloa

Administrator
Stormhaven Studios
I agree very much with that idea: having a tab per character would be a fantastic improvement already
 

Rev

Well-Known Member
I suggested a while ago to change the bank so that each character gets their own bank slots and then have only one row that is shared. I believe 36 slots is max bank right now. So give each character 30 slots for themselves (ea. starting with 6 unlocked) and 6 slots to share between. That would expand storage to a max of 96 slots for an account with 3 characters, which should be plenty.

However, with the added requirement to purchase bank slots, you would probably have to unlock each characters slots individually. Each would start with 6 slots of private and the 6 shared slots. More bank slots for us in the long run, more money sinks for the game as well.

On a side note, my character just hit level 13 and I finally saved up enough to unlock my 1 gold row. I am sure if I had done more grouping to kill more smugglers/exiles instead of animals, I would have gotten there faster, but this I guess gives you a sense of how long it would take if mostly solo. (been doing a lot of collection/crafting to test recipes and results so been solo mostly)
 

Kittik

Well-Known Member
Maybe just 2 Tabs. First tab is Personal bank. What's put in there only that character can see. Second tab is a shared bank. Where any toon on that account can see and access that tab and the stuff inside it. So this way all three of your characters have their own bank and the space of a shared bank.

And to make Undone happy, each toon still needs to purchase the space AND, guess what Undone, you can charge people to open up space in the shared bank. Brilliant!!
 

Pelirow

Active Member
It's definitely an interesting conundrum. On one hand, I do like that inventory is very limited and you have to actually plan and think about what you're doing with your space. On the other it may be on the tad unreasonable side for those who use all 3 toon slots actively and all three toon slots also craft actively. I've destroyed more stuff than I can count that I'd usually be stashing in any other mmo and I only just made my second toon this past weekend. Thought about making a third toon just to be a mule, and I think that's the sort of play we don't want to encourage.
 

RazorBrains

Active Member
I hate inventory management, its probably the single biggest problem I have with this game so far. The question is if inventory management is fun? I don't think people throwing away lots of items is fun. I don't think people forced to log into mule chars is fun. Its also not fun for those that want to play those mules as actual characters.

So if the system is not fun, then what's the point? What is being achieved here with the extreme limited storage slots?

Games like ESO have a system "when subbed" for unlimited crafting inventory. I never heard someone say this game would be so much more fun if instead I had to throw away all this stuff.
 

Pelirow

Active Member
So if the system is not fun, then what's the point? What is being achieved here with the extreme limited storage slots?

Games like ESO have a system "when subbed" for unlimited crafting inventory. I never heard someone say this game would be so much more fun if instead I had to throw away all this stuff.

Player Choice!

Just like we have limited LAS slots, are limited by weight restrictions, and are limited by reagent slots, the idea is player choices matter all around. All those other things are not necessarily "fun" either but they collectively contribute to a game where choices matter.
 

RazorBrains

Active Member
Limits just to have limits doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. I think the end goal should be to have fun, not be time limited or have mechanics that you actually hate but have to "deal with" just to have limits because some game in the past had limits so its tradition.

A slot/weight limit isn't even the same as bank space limits to me. Having to choose your spec, and the consequences to heavy/light armor is a playstyle. You could also accomplish this by giving heavy/light armor various benefits/disadvantages and remove the limits altogether.

Making someone log into a mule to store items, how does that compare to you? What is the purpose of this choice in your eyes? Why does throwing away items that you would like to trade/use seem like something you think the player should have to be forced to choose for some good? What is the ultimate "fun" this is achieving?
 

Pelirow

Active Member
That's for the devs to explain from the design and concept side, but does every choice need to be a fun one? Legit asking. People hated losing exp in EQ and no one would call it fun, but it was one of the hallmark systems that made EQ into EQ.

If I had to guess, the design intent is indeed to make it so you can't be a pack rat, and to intelligently manage your inventory for gameplay goals and purposes rather than mindlessly hoarding everything. This leans towards the "medieval realistic low fantasy" world SHS is shooting for in the sense that as a Drifter, you really shouldn't have all that much you are able to carry and store. Do you just dump your dresser into your suitcase when going on a vacation? Same idea, in a sense. Pack what you want and need the most and leave the rest behind. Whether it's the right design choice is another discussion altogether.
 

RazorBrains

Active Member
Yeah I actually do think everything should ultimately end up at more fun for the vast majority of people at least long term, if it doesn't it needs to be looked at. You can debate what is fun is not fun for people, that people have varying opinions on what "fun" looks like. But if the vast majority agree its not fun both short and long term, it needs to be looked at in my opinion.

In regards to your vacation space. I don't agree, first your comparison is inaccurate, many people don't travel light. Some people travel with only a small toiletry bag, others have many suitcases and pay extra for that. Some people choose to use buses or boats where they can store as much as they want.

So what you are really saying is, is it efficient to be a pack rat? That's a different story, and there is a time penalty to having all this "stuff" to sort through, as someone who is efficient can just grab and go, where a packrat might have sort their storage efficiently or plan in advance to accomplish the same equivalent vacation. However both people can still do what they want, so they ultimately getting to the same destination even if by different paths.
 

Kittik

Well-Known Member
That's for the devs to explain from the design and concept side, but does every choice need to be a fun one? Legit asking. People hated losing exp in EQ and no one would call it fun, but it was one of the hallmark systems that made EQ into EQ.

If I had to guess, the design intent is indeed to make it so you can't be a pack rat, and to intelligently manage your inventory for gameplay goals and purposes rather than mindlessly hoarding everything. This leans towards the "medieval realistic low fantasy" world SHS is shooting for in the sense that as a Drifter, you really shouldn't have all that much you are able to carry and store. Do you just dump your dresser into your suitcase when going on a vacation? Same idea, in a sense. Pack what you want and need the most and leave the rest behind. Whether it's the right design choice is another discussion altogether.
Well, in truth, I would have my own home. Or at least camp. So if you're telling me housing is coming to the game, then woohoo....can't wait.
 

Pelirow

Active Member
Well, in truth, I would have my own home. Or at least camp. So if you're telling me housing is coming to the game, then woohoo....can't wait.
No idea. It was in the original plans but even then was slated for well after launch.
 

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
Usability becomes a huge concern when dealing with multiple "tabs" of storage. Moving things between tabs would require bank --> bag --> [switch tabs] --> bank which is just another pain point and less "fun". If we gave you a personal + shared bank, then you are just going to spend your time moving things from one character's personal bank to another bank A --> shared bank --> [log into different character] --> shared bank --> bank B. Which is also not "fun" - it's just another hoop we would force you to jump through for managing your inventories.

The question for me really becomes: how big is big enough? No matter how much space we give you it will not be enough. Even if we gave you 100 slots, it would eventually become a "pain in the ass" and no longer be "fun" because you fill it up with stuff. This is one of those instances where we can't really use the "fun" metric because no one finds inventory management fun. We have to implement restrictions in some fashion - so the question comes back around to "how big is big enough?". Players are like gold fish - you will fill whatever we give you.

Now with that being said - I've mentioned multiple times that we are happy to revisit this question and adjust the bank size accordingly. But we have to be reasonable about it.
 

Kittik

Well-Known Member
Usability becomes a huge concern when dealing with multiple "tabs" of storage. Moving things between tabs would require bank --> bag --> [switch tabs] --> bank which is just another pain point and less "fun". If we gave you a personal + shared bank, then you are just going to spend your time moving things from one character's personal bank to another bank A --> shared bank --> [log into different character] --> shared bank --> bank B. Which is also not "fun" - it's just another hoop we would force you to jump through for managing your inventories.
You make it sound a lot worse than it is. EQ2 did the exact thing I was describing and never once did I ever feel like it was cumbersome. I actually really liked the way EQ2 did banking.
 

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
You make it sound a lot worse than it is. EQ2 did the exact thing I was describing and never once did I ever feel like it was cumbersome. I actually really liked the way EQ2 did banking.
I'm just trying to keep things in perspective for everyone. What's the difference between one large shared bank or each character having a personal bank? It's the player's perceptions and how you end up managing that inventory. None of this addresses the question of "how much is enough"?
 

Kittik

Well-Known Member
If I'm being honest, which I almost never am, I'd prefer no shared banks, and each toon has to buy the bank space they have. But I won't say that too loud or too often, because I know some folks who might want me dead for such opinions.
 

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
If I'm being honest, which I almost never am, I'd prefer no shared banks, and each toon has to buy the bank space they have. But I won't say that too loud or too often, because I know some folks who might want me dead for such opinions.
Having no shared bank is just us putting more obstacles in your way for managing your inventory. If I had it my way you'd all only have a single character and a single bank. Would greatly simplify a lot of the code/db side of things and half of these conversations about alts wouldn't even exist :)
 

Kittik

Well-Known Member
I'm just trying to keep things in perspective for everyone. What's the difference between one large shared bank or each character having a personal bank? It's the player's perceptions and how you end up managing that inventory. None of this addresses the question of "how much is enough"?
Pelirow made a good point that we are homeless nomads. And how much permanent space would someone like us have? So, it got me thinking. Probably not much, but if we did need space, a bank is not where we'd keep it.

Keep the bank as it is. 6 slots to begin with and then X money to expand and it stays open to all your characters. But then, at another location in the towns are rentable chests. These chests already exists in the towns. (I've seen them laying around) 12 slot chest for 1 gold per month, 24 slot chest for 2 gold per month, 36 slot...etc. (It doesn't have to be different chests around town (although ideal in my vision) you could use the same chests for all the sizes, just give people the option of what they want to buy. This is another option for a money sink, that is immersive to the game and allows players to expand their storage capacity. (I'm with the crowd that wonders why there is such an emphasis on restricting how much space people have, but I don't care about it very much....I just like money sinks).
 

Undone

Codemaster
Stormhaven Studios
Pelirow made a good point that we are homeless nomads. And how much permanent space would someone like us have? So, it got me thinking. Probably not much, but if we did need space, a bank is not where we'd keep it.

Keep the bank as it is. 6 slots to begin with and then X money to expand and it stays open to all your characters. But then, at another location in the towns are rentable chests. These chests already exists in the towns. (I've seen them laying around) 12 slot chest for 1 gold per month, 24 slot chest for 2 gold per month, 36 slot...etc. (It doesn't have to be different chests around town (although ideal in my vision) you could use the same chests for all the sizes, just give people the option of what they want to buy. This is another option for a money sink, that is immersive to the game and allows players to expand their storage capacity. (I'm with the crowd that wonders why there is such an emphasis on restricting how much space people have, but I don't care about it very much....I just like money sinks).
This is really no different than a bank if you discount the rent/tax. The problem with this idea is that once you give the player space they will fill the space with items - and once the space is filled with items you have to come up with a solution to what to do with those items when you inevitably have to take it away because the rent/tax was not paid. This is not a system I want to dedicate engineering resources to. We could just "delete" those items, but that's not a good way of keeping players playing your game.
 

Kittik

Well-Known Member
You just don't allow them to access the items until rent is paid. Just like storage units IRL.